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Thanks everybody!

Maralynn-I have never owned a border collie. I have a golden retriever. When I got him I was interested in a BC but everyone said no no no you have no dog experience! I know Goldens aren't the same but it turns out I'm naturally really good with pretty much all dogs. I love the high energy, agile nature of a BC. I want a dog who can bike with me (moderate biking, 5-20 miles at a time), as I have stopped biking since it's no fun anymore since my Golden is too old for it. I know it would be a couple of years after getting a puppy that I'd be able to do this but I could wait that long if I couldn't find a rescue that would suit. I am also interested in a BC because of their size and athleticism to teach frisbee and agility tricks to for fun. SAR work is what really interests me though. I have read a lot about BCs from owners and trainers and I really think they're a good match for me and my lifestyle and I think I'd be able to raise one to be a happy, healthy pup.

Did you do temperament tests on your rescue dogs? What about the puppy? How did you choose them?

Not yet, because I am moving this summer. I have contacted one of the teams where I'm going. I plan to join them in the fall and do as much training as I can without the dog, all the basic certifications and such, and by then I'm sure I'll have someone there who can help me with picking a dog. I'm just the kind of person who does a lot of research about things ahead of time. I've been wanting to do SAR for like....maybe 15 years? But I've never had the time or money to dedicate to it. It's possible I won't like it, but it's unlikely. I'm the right kind of personality for it. I loved FTXs in college and rainy muddy obstacle courses and all that stuff (I went to a paramilitary university).

Thank you! Are you suggesting I should post my question as a reply in that thread?

I am interested in getting a border collie pup for search and rescue work. Has anyone had any experience with this? I searched the archives but couldn't find anything; I wonder if there's something weird with mobile as the reason, I don't know. I am also wondering if anyone has any tips on rescue adult vs working bred pup for SAR. I'm leaning toward pup to make sure they get a good training start, but would love to hear from people who actually know. I am attending a sheepdog trial in June to see if I can make connections with someone who might be breeding, maybe talk to some more people. Any tips?

I agree, Diana that was a very informative post, thank you. And I had no idea people believed this ^^. Do people really think BC's aren't used for stock anymore?! What do they think, ranchers have robots now?!?! Thanks for telling me, that does explain some of the...ahem...passion I sensed behind answers and some of the assumptions that seemed to be made about me. Thank you for all of your answers, I feel like I've actually learned something.

I'm kind of regretting asking this question, lol. Thank you so much to those of you who answered me. I appreciate the time it took to explain some genetic/biology basics. I'm sorry I have offended some by using the word "border," or have shown off my obvious snobbery by using the phrase "border collie." I'm still not exactly sure how I'm supposed to refer to the dog here. I'm also sorry for having the audacity to ask a question that has been asked before. I wanted to interact and engage with actual, knowledgeable people on the subject instead of just reading articles and the like online which usually leave me more confused than intellectually satisfied, as they tend to be watered down and highly emotional instead of informative. I was unaware that I was expected to have a 30 year knowledge of breeding history and discussion before commenting here. Again, thank you so much to all of you who very thoughtfully explained (a) what exactly people's actual problems are, ( the biological difficulty in actually creating a new breed of dog, © a few of the cultural differences around the world, and (d) that most people who may be desiring to fulfill a specific urban need would probably have their needs met with less of a designer option, thereby not making the creating of a new breed a "need fulfillment" in the historical, anthropological sense. And no, I have not seen that Nova episode, though it looks fascinating. I watch biology documentaries for fun in my spare time, I will try to find that one. Thank y'all.

Okay, this is interesting. Speaking specifically of BCs and not of general breeding theory, you're saying the herding instinct and the dog's drive/athleticism are linked? That's interesting. I wonder how much of the dog genome has been mapped?

Ah, yes, some excellent points!!! Perhaps gender (or, rather, size) only matters when you're really serious about competing on a very high level. Oh, decisions decisions! LOL Thanks!

I should add: Assuming the breeder isn't a complete idiot. Assuming the breeder has a wealth of information about biology and genetics, and specifically breeds a particular trait out of or into a particular dog. Crossing a cocker with a golden with some poodle mixed in so that, in 10 or 20 generations, they have a medium sized, intelligent, calm, mostly hypoallergenic dog that reproduces itself according to a standard and that meets an immediate need - that of service dog to children. I've seen breeders like that lambasted (not on this site, just in general) for "messing with the breed" and I just don't get it. What if that person is selectively breeding OUT the herding instinct in borders while attempting to keep their agile and driven nature? In 10 or 20 generations, maybe its something else. Maybe it's an "urban collie" or something. But is there anything really wrong with that? Or is people's problem that they are still trying to call them "border collies" and they don't necessarily have a problem with the practice in the first place?

This is an excellent answer, thank you.

I don't think people are understanding my question. I don't need reasons why I don't need a border collie. I'm not asking for advice on owning a dog or breeding dogs. I am asking a BIOLOGY and ANTHROPOLOGY question. Border collies came from something. Border collies, dachshunds, yorkies, pyrenees, malamutes, golden retrievers: they did not always exist. They were bred to fill a need. My question is, why is this any different? Yes, if someone breeds herding instinct out of a border it's not really a border anymore, just like if someone bred retrieving instinct out of a retriever it wouldn't be a retriever anymore. But I don't understand why it makes the breeder a bad person, and why it makes the dog an undesirable dog. Isn't alteration of traits to meet a new need something humans have been doing for thousands of years? Just because the need is urban, why is it considered "lesser"?

Now, before you all draw your long swords and prod me off the plank know that (1) I have no desire or plans to breed any dogs, and (2) I am asking this from purely a biological/genetic/anthropological point of view. Assuming that I am not talking about dogs bred for conformation or specialty color, which is obviously a terrible reason to continue a breeding program... Why is it such a bad thing to breed dogs for good companionship/agility/frisbee while ignoring or possibly weeding out herding/sheepdog instinct? Isn't that how all dog breeds are eventually formed, a need is seen (modern competition homes that don't own sheep or cattle but want agility/frisbee dogs who can also be good with kids so that herding instinct is only a detriment and not an advantage) and then the dog is modified to meet that need? Isn't that what created dog breeds, including the border collie, to begin with? I guess my question is, why all the hate on "designer" breeds of dogs, or breeders who are trying to change (as opposed to maintain or improve) the breed, when isn't that what humans have been doing for thousands and thousands of years?

I would like to clarify - I would then give him his food back. I mean, pick up the bowl, give him a high value treat like some cheese or a piece of hot dog, then put the food back. I have small children, and will always have small children around my dogs, that's just part of my life. I want my dogs to know that anything that happens while they are eating - if the food gets picked up, or if kids are petting them, or whatever - that it's fine, nothing bad will come of that. Do I let my kids do that? No. They are not allowed to bother the dogs while they are eating. Would I be willing to bet my dog's life (a bite to a child can be a death sentence) on any toddler's ability to always remember and obey instructions? Absolutely not.