wyndrunhr

Is there any training of young dogs away from stock, (besides the obvious Lie Down and Recall) that's recommended to prep for actual work on stock? Some things that would come to my mind would be a left or right (or Away/Comebye), walk up, move away, walks off leash in rural settings, conditioning, etc.? Or do you all feel all the training from the beginning should be done on stock?

Denice, Donald, Gloria.......thanks-great discussion and learning!

Denice, Can you please go into more detail about why using the lie down to slow the dog down is a bad idea? How is the lie down any more of a correction than a AAHHHH or a Hey? Sounds like a correction to me? I'm just very interested in your response and trying to learn. THANKS!

Sue, Was Bute born with a short tail? Thanks!

I have a pup from working lines that was born with short tail. I've been told this sometimes happens in BC's and just wondered if anyone knew of any good trial dogs that were born with a short tail and would love to see video or pics of them. I'm wondering if it would affect this pups potential in performance in any way? When I say short I mean about half a tail length with no twisting or deformation of vertebrae at base of spine but only about 3-4 disc's from base.

Thanks Chan and he is gorgeous and sounds talented. Would love to have some folks respond with older dilute dogs and their experience with them health wise?

Liz, Thanks for your info! I researched and found out that CN is a simple recessive and there is a easy DNA test for that. Not sure why folks with a dilute dog don't test for that before breeding? I need to call the lab to find out if carriers must be dilute or not, or can be carriers but not be dilute? But seems like a good practice to test any dilute dog before breeding. I do know that many of the color breeders breed dilute to dilute....based on my research, I would say that's a very bad idea. Here's what I found on CN- https://www.vetgen.com/canine-cyclic-neutropenia.html I did not breed for color, but I also do not want to NOT breed for color UNLESS it is a health issue.

It's really the pits that people call black and white dogs with merle coat pattern "blue merle." A more accurate description would be a "black merle." It's way less confusing that way. My pup is a blue and white dog that's also merle.........that should be a blue merle, but some folks call a slate merle......semantics bad. Anyway, the Blue Collie Coat disease is an auto immune disease primarily found in Rough Collies, but could be in BC also.

I do NOT breed for color and just bred a litter from two strong working lines that happened to produce a true blue puppy. Not a blue merle, which is a black and white dog with a merle pattern; but a blue and white dog with a merle pattern. He seems very healthy and is the biggest pup in the litter and is very outgoing, confident and gregarious and has color on his eyes and ears, but is also white factored. I'm trying to decide which pup to keep for herding and sports and wondered if any of you feel the dilute dogs carry other color linked genetic problems because they are dilute? I seem to remember a few of the blue dogs I've come across over the years having Alopecia; but also other problems like digestive and neurological problems and just weird stuff that seems to be outside the range of normal? Coincidence? I can BAER test DNA test for MLPH (color dilution alopecia.) Just wondering what experience you guys have with the dilute dogs? I have done research and know about Collie Blue disease and the Alopecia, both of which can be DNA tested. But there is no scientific research on other associated issues, so just wondered about anecdotal evidence you might have? I'm not choosing a puppy because of color, but I also don't want to NOT keep a puppy based on color.

Gosh, this is a GREAT discussion, from many experts from differing backgrounds! I think I get it Zach and have heard this before, BUT If the Stud dog with the less than perfect phenotype has a history of producing supreme phenotype in his puppies from different dams, is that not just as strong or stronger indication of the stud's genotype than his actual phenotype? Bonnie

Excellent point and great food for thought. One dog I'm looking at has an untested (no trialing farm dog) pedigree but is a fantastic working dog and love his style. The other is an average worker but has produced top winning trial dogs. But I personally prefer the way the working style of the other dog. I guess this is how you see distinct working styles in some lines of dogs. Bonnie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But the dog could be a less than average worker but genetically CARRY the attributes and pass them on to his get. A good example in horses in Secretariat.........maybe the best running horse in history but not able to produce himself or anything close. Likewise there are examples of horses that were average winners but TOP producers of top winning race horses. So I guess their phenotype does not really express their genotype. The only way you can do that is through breeding and observing their produce? Bonnie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Did they suggest you get the Cartrophen injections in the toe joint or IM or sub cue? Just wondering? And if you did it, did it help? Bonnie

Whoops, both are trial dogs. Bonnie

Jovi and others, Excellent points. But lets say that both potential sires are similar in size, conformation, health and temperament. Both having equal complimentary characteristics to my bitch. One is an average worker but has produced many outstanding trials dogs with different dams. One is an outstanding trial dog but has a pedigree of unknown and unproven dogs and has never been bred. I love how you mentioned probability. If only there were a software program for that? :~) I guess it's our in our heads and our gut instinct. Bonnie