ts

A-Frame, They let anyone on these boards. Seen the pissin pup headline, started laughing and thought, "God this blackacre is crazy. Then, I see your signature. Sam, It may be cheaper to recycle your old bras through the salvation army. My pup is totally crate broke...nanana. However, he is dumb shit...literally. And he is full of it. He has NEVER came in the house from outside without crapping. I know sometimes that they get mixed up but he doesn't get in. At least I won't have to worry about him taking a dump on the trial course! Inci, I am sorry to hear of your husband's health crisis. It appears that he is progressing. Hang in there. Terry

I believe that presence and power are two different things. I had a dog with great presence that was weak as water. A post in the new Shepard's Group by Wendy Roller gave what I thought was a very good analogy of presence and power.

Thought of another M sheep......Merino and you would not want them.

Are you sure that sheep are dog broke and not dog abused....there is a big difference. (Were the dogs that worked the sheep, good working dogs) Besides the breed of sheep, you need to be sure that they are healthy. Are the ewes bred? What age are they? All these things need to be considered. Generally, Columbias and Suffolks are the heaviest(do not mean weight) breeds to work and may not be the best to start a young dog on. Off the top of my head I can only think of the Montadale breed of sheep that start with M. You really need someone with experience to see the sheep to help you decide. People on the boards can only guess. I would think that a minimum of 5-6 sheep is necessary. Also, if you mixed the flocks, they will not stay together for awhile and would be harder for your dogs and you to start on. ------------------

My vet gave me the same information as Julie's vet regarding aspirin.

Buying sheep is very much a "buyer beware" deal. I have watched purebred sheep sell at auction for over $100,000. per head. However, registration papers are not what makes the sheep valuable. Some sheep may be worth $1000's with papers---some sheep with papers are not worth market price. Too many newcomers look at that registration as some sort of guarantee. It is kind of like dogs, just cause Daddy and Mommy were champions (sheep) or trial winners (dogs), the offspring are only valuable when said offspring prove themselves. It has been my experience that good sound young haired ewes sell for about $75-$100. Bill, come to Michigan. Shearers get $5.00 per head and it is very hard to get them on a timely basis. You are right on the money about purchasing hay equipment. You also don't stand the chance of having your hay crop ruined by rain before you can get it baled. We have a neighbor that causes it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights everytime that he cuts hay. No other neighbor within a 20 mile radius would cut hay when he had his hay down. Farmers make up their own superstitions.

Trisha, I also live in Michigan. There are 2 USBCHA directors from Michigan. Jeanne Weaver and Dal Kratzer and both give lessons. Their accomplishments are capabilities and well known nationally. The Michigan Border Collie Association is having its annual meeting the first week-end in February at Jeanne's. They do various fun-days etc. during the year. Would love to have you come. The Michigan Sheepbreeders are putting on their annual Shepard's weekend complete with synposium and big trade show the 1st week-end in January. Guest speakers will abound. I know there a sheep producr panel to answer questions on raising haired sheep and one on grazing. Dr. Rook will be presenting the sheep health issues. You sound like you are more interested in getting sheep to work your dogs on than to sell for a profit. You may want to speak to some handlers in Michigan and start out with some previously dogged sheep. Although Bill does not like the haired sheep, and they do have their faults when training open level dogs--for economics purposes; you can't beat them. With 4 acres, you would buy hay versus raise it. I have 40 acres and still buy all the hay. IF you are interested in any of the above events, email me and I will send you phone numbers for the contact people. Terry

If you contact the people who run your local lamb pool or livestock sale; they will tell you which day to bring the 50 lb. and under lambs to sell for the Greek Orthodox Easter. That Easter is always the first week-end in May. We have eliminated the sale and lamb pool and now sell direct. One person now contracts 50 lambs per year from us. We sell him all ram lambs--don't bother to wether them-- and he does not want them over 50 lbs so that even elimates any ram lambs that you would consider selling for breeding cause they will weigh more. We will sell ewe lambs if we don't happen to have enough ram lambs that year. It leaves the ewe lambs to pasture out in the summer. We leave them on their mothers longer after their ram lambs are gone. The buyer comes, loads and we get $100 per head--- approx. $2.00 per pound. No selling or trucking expenses. Nothing could be easier and you have gotten rid of your bottom end of the lamb crop. Our buyer and his purchasers must really be satified with the lambs that they buy--- he keeps coming back and wanting more each year. We lamb in February. The sheep are dorper and kahtadin (can't spell and can't spell check) crosses. ------------------

Sam, Before I neutered Tux, I had his semen collected twice for a total cost of $200.00 which included his DNA test. The vet also checked the quality of the semen before freezing. The vet was a fertility specialist referred to me by Michigan State. Tux's semen is stored in a sperm bank in California for a cost of $60. annually. (I got "secret numbers" to order its release, etc.) Tweed is an A-I. The cost to A-I the bitch (not mine) and the tests to insure when she is optimally ready was only $130. Conversing with this vet was very interesting. He said that the newest thing that he was doing for the AKC folks was A-I ing the bitch to multiple males per breeding. By having pups from numerous selected males, the breeder "thought" that he could easily determine which male that the bitch crossed best with. The breeder then knew which male to breed her to in the future. PLEASE NOTE: I AM JUST REPEATING INFO AND NOT GIVING AN OPINION. Denise, I am glad that the ABCA is going to develope a policy. When I did the A-I over 2 years ago, the association did not have a policy and really didn't know what to do. We ended up just registering the pups the regular way. Does anyone know if they have ever embryio transplanted bitches like they do sheep and cattle? Finally, I respectfully disagree with both Bills when they say "If you can't decide which dog to take the bitch to, you probably don't know enough about either dog." The good breeders that I know almost know too much about the potential dogs that they consider. They have considered their faults, their progency, their trial record, etc. They are not "stable blind" and carefully consider the faults in their bitches that they consider good enough to breed. Then they need to decide if they want to breed for like or to compensate for weaknesses. Should you line breed or go for an outstide cross? Still they worry if they have chosen correctly. And they won't know for sure if they made the right decision until those pups are 2-3 yrs. and fully trained.

Sue, As a person, who in a former life who used to breed Suffolk show sheep,we used various "not natural" methods to bring the ewes into season. The most common practice was implanting 1/2 of a synchomate pellet (cattle used a full pellet) in the ewes and them pulling after nine dayds so the ewes would come into heat. Of course, the ram had to have fertility shots. Or you could sponge the ewes. These methods are not cheap and but you can justify it---if you are getting about $600 per lamb. It is also labor intensive. You mentioned breeding in summer. You will have to keep the rams very cool so they are not temporarily infertile from the heat. If you think it is worth it, go for it. In my old age and since I've "gone to the dogs", the commercial sheep are much less demanding. If you breed in the August, you end up lambing in January which can be cold but that is another story. Terry

Thad's response regarding the shock collar is one of the best that I have read. The first sentence should become a classic. Since the great handler's with almost perfect timing do not use shock collars, why should the rest of us handlers think of it as a viable method to train a dog on livestock? Terry Sheaffer

Cap died at the Meeker trial. He did not overheat when he ran. He was fine after he ran. Later in the afternoon, Tommy found him dead in his crate. To my knowledge. am autopsy was not done. Speculation was heart.

Sue, I am a little confused as why sheep would be spotted so close to the fence at a trial. You definitely want a dog strong enough to take sheep off of the fence but not on an outrun at a trial. Taking sheep off of the exhaust (If you are dumb or unlucky enough to let the sheep get to the exhaust and put your dog in that position --and I have been that dumb and dumber more than once!) would be a truer test of the dog's strength. However on an outrun, I thought that it was traditional and fair that the dog have enough room at the top to make a proper lift without disturbing the sheep on the way up on his outrun. If he basically has to run at them and disturb them, then the spotter must really be holding them too tight if they are staying. Am I misreading or misunderstanding what you are trying to say about the location of the sheep and the fence? I have been to many trials where the majority of handlers sent their dogs in a particular direction because they did not believe that the other direction left enough room to do a good outrun without disturbing the sheep. However, on the double lift you do not have the option of choosing your direction. Surprised that this was not thought of by the course director or judge. I have to be missing something here. The prettiest way to do a look back for a double lift is sometimes called a "swallowtail". It is also said to be a "Scottish thing" although used by a few top other handlers. I have also been told it is the most risky. If you go see the top 20 open dogs at the finals next Sunday, you will see it executed and very well. Me-I cannot describe it or nor execute it. A picture is worth a thousand words amd watching the finals is more fun than posting on a board! If you cannot get to the finals, there is always the video. Terry ------------------

Make sure that it is outside. I donated lambs usage for the nativity scene for a church service. Lambs were not housebroken. The lambs also did not like the marble floors going to the pen. I walked the lambs down the aisle to the pen. A dog herding in a church was a little much for me. Did not do it again. Bottle baby lambs are good for these kind of things. This could be a real ho ho ho.

They could be either. No one on the boards should or could tell you which they might be. You need to go to your vet. He will do a biopsy if he thinks that there is a possibility that it is cancerous. Do not wait to go to your vet. Do it now rather than later. Terry Sheaffer