mrenee

I don't want anyone to think that I think I have made the "right" choice or that by posting I am trying to justify it to myself. I merely stated that I made a choice, one that I'm still not entirely sure about and one that I may or may not ever be sure is the right one.

I don't think any part of any of my posts attempts to justify my choice. It's merely an explanation of how I came to my conclusions in the first place and how many of those were eventually proven wrong, mostly by my own ignorance. Much of my second post was to explain some things that I thought were a bit unclear in my first post.

I posted to share my experience with others. Even though I'm embarrassed to admit that I messed up, especially to a group of people who are so passionate and so knowledgeable about the breed that I love, I hope that someone who goes through the same thing in the future may see where I messed up and avoid the mistakes for themselves. I posted to hear advice and experience from others, even if it's snappish and critical. You all have given me much to think about, and still thinking I am. I'm sure I will be thinking about this for a long time.

Liz, surprisingly the one I know is CKC is black and white. They have a blue merle, a red and white, and the rest are black and white or black/white tri. To their credit, they don't place emphasis on color, which was another reason I was confused as to why they were breeding CKC litters, I would think that would be only for color.

Gloria, most of those are still red flags for me. Picking the puppy from a photo isn't as much anymore since many people shared that it is a a fairly common practice even within the working community. I know that the logical thing to do would be to nix this puppy right now and wait for one from a better litter from a more reputable breeder. Liz, it's not because of my friend that I am sticking with this puppy. As I mentioned before, the reason is very personal. It has to deal with family and as much as I value everyone here, it is not something that I want to share with people on a mostly anonymous public forum. It leaves me very emotionally invested in the situation and in this puppy even though I haven't met him yet. I'm not sure I'm strong enough to overcome the emotion with the logic. It's not something I'm happy about, but it is what it is.

I realize that this puppy could be very unhealthy and that I will be investing a lot of money in him if that's the case. I realize that he may have major temperament issues that I will have to deal with. These are things that I'm aware of and will do to give the puppy the best life possible. I know that this is a lesson learned and in the future I will work my hardest to not make the same mistakes and do the absolute best by the breed that I can. As I said before, I appreciate the responses and appreciate the time it takes for you to read and post them, even when it seems like I'm not listening, which I know is what it must seem like. But, again, I really do take all of this to heart.

I appreciate everyone's posts. You have given me excellent advice. I have read them all multiple times.

I feel a bit better about picking my pup from a picture. I guess I was just a little taken about because I thought I was clear about the fact that I wanted to meet them first, and that we were on the same page about it.

To clarify a few things: I definitely do not think they have outright deceived me. If I did I would get out quick. I think it's been a combination of me being excited and asking misunderstanding between the questions I was asking and what I was looking for.

The sire and dam of my pup are ABCA registered. They are both trained to work on cattle. Through videos I have seen them both work and was satisfied that I wanted a pup from them. I also talked to reference that the breeder provided who weren't relatives and were familiar with both the sire and the dam. I think this is one of the reasons that I didn't pick up on a few things, there were no red flags with the sire and dam of my puppy. I have no doubt about my puppy's potential workability.

The problem came in with their other dogs. None of them are registered AKC, because they disagree with the AKC (as they told me). So I was quite taken aback when I found out a couple of there other dogs were registered CKC, which I don't know much about but had heard, as some of you all said, that it was a "junk" registry. If they just owned these dogs it wouldn't bother me, but these dogs are also used for breeding.

The health testing was on the website, which is the first thing I found. Later on I was told that they no longer use their website, it has old information and they only use their Facebook page. Why they don't do health testing anymore, I don't know. It was more of a careless mistake then outright deception that I thought they did. However, my contract does state that my puppy will be healthy and be up-to-date on all vaccinations, etc, so if he does turn out to have some sort of genetic problem I could argue that that voids the contract. My contract also states that I can always return the puppy for any reason, and if it's something that's their fault I would be entitled to a refund.

I do personally know someone who has a puppy from this breeder from the same sire and dam. He was actually the one who recommended them to me. Working ability was high on his list of criteria so that may be one reason that I wasn't as critical with them as I should have been at first. I have spoken with numerous people (through facebook) who have gotten puppies from this breeder and from the same sire my puppy has and I've not found any that have any health, temperament, or genetic problems.

I think these people are doing what they feel is their best to breed happy and healthy dogs. It just doesn't line up with what I believe is the best way to go about it, and my frustration lies in the fact that I thought it did line up.

For multiple reasons, some of them very personal and not easily explained, I have almost absolutely decided to stick with my puppy. I know many of you don't approve, and I respect that and understand why. I do realize what I am risking and what I am supporting, even if it was sort of inadvertently at the beginning. I will definitely not be purchasing a pup from them again or recommending them to anyone. But I will give my pup the best life possible.

Again, I think everyone for their response. They were all thoughtful, full of information, and have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate the personal experiences people have shared with me. It's good to know that people have been on both sides of this same coin and how they handled it. This board has been a great tool in teaching me about the Border Collie (even though I grew up with one I found out I really didn't know a lot when I joined) and the culture that surrounds the breed I will definitely be here as long as I have BCs, and hopefully that will be for the rest of my life.

I'm so frustrated with myself.

I've been on the boards for awhile and been researching getting a Border Collie for over a year (I always knew I wanted one but was never in a position to get one until now).

I joined the boards because I believe wholeheartedly in the working bred Border Collie. I think that's the only reason you should breed Border Collies (any dog, really, but that's for another day). So i searched and searched for breeder that fit those standards.

I thought I found one who was relatively close and worked out with my timeline (I had to wait until I was in a pet friendly apartment) and was extremely happy. From my research (from their website and talking with them) I gathered that they worked their collies even though the didn't trial, did health tests, only bred a couple of times a year, the puppies were raised in the house and great process was put into their socialization.

I put my name down for the next litter and thought everything was peachy. I hadn't been able to visit the farm but I personally know someone who got a puppy from them and I had seen videos of both the mom and dad herding and interacting with people, so I was comfortable doing that with plans to visit the farm in the near future.

Well life got in the way and I haven't been able to visit the farm yet and as time had wore on I've realized that maybe my breeder is as responsible as I thought.

My puppy is already born and he appears to be wonderful. But my first red flag was that I had to pick him out from a picture, instead of waiting until he was older and picking him out by temperament. What really bugged me about this was the fact that from my first contact with these people I had discussed my emphasis on the temperament, not color, of my puppy and that I wanted to meet him before I picked him. They never told me that wouldn't be an option.

Then I found out how many litters they have at one time (more than 2 right now), and they currently have 10+ puppies that haven't even been sold yet. How can you put emphasis on socialization with that many puppies running around?

Not the litter that I'm getting, but one of their other littler is CKC, not ABCA registered. I don't know much about the CKC but I've never heard anything good about it. Also, again not the parents of my litter, but some of their other dogs were purchased from a breeder that I had previously nixed because of (what I felt) were their discriminate policy of putting litters on the ground and nothing else. Also, not all of my breeders dogs that they breed are actually trained to work. I think I didn't pick up on this because it didn't deal with the dogs my pup has come from and that was what I was concerned about in the beginning.

Oh, they apparently don't do health testing. They used to, but, as I was told, would have to charge much more for their puppies if they did do it (even though they are charging more than other breeders I looked at who do do health testing). I wasn't happy when I heard this, but it's partly my fault because I didn't ask up front I just went by the information I found on their website.

To top it all off, when I was trying to make plans to meet the puppies and parents a couple of weeks before I actually take my puppy home (which apparently can't happen because of scheduling conflicts) I was told that I can come get my puppy anytime after he's 6 weeks old. I'm not an expert but I didn't think you should let your pup go until at least 7 weeks. I told them that I wasn't coming to get him until he was 8 weeks.

Maybe I should just nix it and find a breeder that is actually reputable, but I'm not going to. I've already paid for him and I'm emotionally invested now. If he has health or temperament problems I will deal with them as they come. I don't think he will because I've talked to several people who have puppies from this breeder and these parents and they are all solid.

I'm just frustrated with myself because I thought I was doing the right thing and now I'm not so sure. I truly believe that these people love their dogs and do their best to do right by them, but that doesn't make them a superb breeder of working Border Collies. Please scold me, I deserve it.

This is the first time I've done this so I'm bound to make a few mistakes. I'm just so aggravated because I searched for so long and thought this one was the best of both worlds. It's only due to my own negligence that I didn't find out some of these details sooner. Like, it never ever occurred to me to make sure that I could meet the puppy before I picked him. I thought I had been upfront about that fact and no one ever told me that wouldn't happy. I also took some things at face value. Some of their breeding stock is trained to herd, so I never assumed that some of the others wouldn't be.

I'm still really excited to bring my puppy home. I can't wait until he gets here. But I feel a bit guilty now about supporting someone who doesn't adhere to a high standard of working bred BCs.

Yeah, I knew about Winston Cap which is kind of one of the reasons I'm not sure about calling my pup Cap. If you're familiar with Border Collies Cap instantly makes you think about Winston Cap, and there are many other dogs named Cap, too. I kind of like odd names that aren't that common, which is also one of the reasons I'm on the fence about Jack, too. I like to be different, haha.

Thanks everyone! Almost all of my facebook friend liked Asher. I was kind of surprised because it's a bit of an odd name, but it's actually the first name I picked out. So maybe that's a sign?

Fable is also growing on me more and more. It wasn't one of my top name at first.

Someone else mentioned that I might not want to do Nova since it sounds like "no". I try not to use the word no when training but I know that sometimes I'll mess up and say it and I can't trust other people not to use it.

I do like Captain Jack Sparrow a lot, but I too know many Jacks (none of whom I like very much, so there's that), and I'm not sure about calling him Cap.

I'm currently in a program to become a professional dog trainer. It's taught that single words are not so much easier for dogs to remember, but for people. You teach people to only say one word so they don't fall into the trap to say "sit" "sit down" "down", etc. for the same command. And we are taught to say the dog's name to get there attention, but if they are already focused you can just give the command.

Yet we are also taught that every situation is different and that there are no hard and fast rules, so you're trainer yelling at you is a bit ridiculous. If you had previously been using a different word for sit then he could have gently pointed out that you need to use the same command for the same behavior. Dogs don't come knowing English so you can match any behavior to any cue as long as you keep it consistent. You can tall your dog "the beaver jumped over the tree" to prompt a sit if that's what floats your boat. Longer cues may take longer to teach but that's about it.

It says the video on youtube is private but I was able to watch the one on facebook. We had a dog like this in the daycare I used to work for. It's almost like he's over aroused. Flint seems to be uncomfortable with it (especially if it finally caused a fight) so I would correct it so he doesn't feel like he has to.

You could try a couple of different things and see what works. When he starts it you could completely remove him for everything for a time out. In the same vein you could use a long line or something similar and just remove him from Flint until he calms down.

You could also carry a squirt bottle full of water and squirt him in the nose each time he barks. If it's annoying enough he'll stop.

You've only had her a month, correct? She's doing amazing well for so short a period. Sometimes it takes dogs months and months to truly settle into their new home. As she does settle more and more her drive (for whatever task) will improve. You have to remember that she went through a major life change not too long ago, and that's probably not out of her system yet.

You sound like your doing wonderfully with her. I will second the advice about ending the training session before she gets tired. I would even go so far as to say end it when she is at her finest. You say she starts to wane about 10 minutes in? Then I would end the session at 5 or 7 minutes. That way she's still really into it and it leaves her wanting to do it more and more.

I had another thought. For the bathing problem, having you thought about purchasing some grooming wipes. There are plenty of brands out there. I personally own these: http://www.amazon.com/Earthbath-Natural-Hypo-Allergenic-Fragrance-Free-Grooming/dp/B000WFIVSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373678332&sr=8-1&keywords=grooming+wipes

I've not used them yet, but my friend raves about them. This would eliminate having to bathe him so often and give you time to work on the bath becoming a positive instead of such a dreaded thing.

My puppy gets to come home with me on August 18th. I get to visit him sometime this week, probably Friday. I'm so excited. I'm trying to amuse myself by picking out a name for him. So here are the one's I've narrowed it down to and I wanted to get everyone's opinion of what you like. He's a male.

Here are some photos of him:

Here are the names:
Aidan (alternative spelling, Aden): Irish in origin, means "little fire"
Asher: name from the Bible, means "happy"
Cailean: Scottish in origin, means "pup" (appropriate, right?)
Fable: this one wasn't an early favorite, but it keeps growing on me.
Skylar: means "scholar", thought it was appropriate for a BC
Nova: this one came to me since he's mostly black

Two of my early favorites were:
Captain Jack Sparrow: from Pirates of the Carribean (favorite movies) I would call him Jack.
Rochester: from Jane Eyre. (call name: Rocky)

These last two aren't exactly out of the running, but some of the other names are appealing to me more now.

So what do you all think?

You have received some really great advice here. I agree with finding a trainer that is local, quickly. A good resource is http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx You can look up trainers in your area. I would talk with a few, discuss their training methods, and see if any of them near you have experience with BCs.

Also, have you considered your body posture when these things happen? If you are standing up and leaning over top of him when giving commands and snapping on the leash this could be triggering the submissive urination and growling. He may think you are trying to dominate him and it scares him. Try squatting and coming down to his level.

I think someone else mentioned it, but you might also consider the tone of your voice. If your voice is deep it might automatically seem aggressive or dominant to the pup. Try using a softer tone or even whispering.

I think it commendable that you want to work with your pup. I can tell that you care about him very much. I think having a qualified trainer coming in and observing your interactions with the pup will really help and be able to set you on the right track.

I officially want a bear that can hula-hoop.

Recently I handled a German-bred Boxer. Not knowing too much about the boxer breed I would have said he was a mix, or badly bred, at first glance because his face was terribly squished in, his body was stocky but in a weird way that was proportioned funny. He looked nothing like the two Boxers that my friend owns. Both dogs are sound in structure and in temperament. Come to find out this particular Boxer was a champion in the show ring and had earned numerous titles. People paid a ton of money to be able to breed to him. It just blows my mind that that is what people want, not dogs like Jake and Duke, who are happy and healthy. I just can't imagine wanting a dog that is constantly heaving when he's breathing because all his airways are blocked and squished. I hear these dogs try to breathe and it breaks my heart.

You should look into the group 4Paws. I'm not sure if they are in your area or not but they train service dogs specifically for children, and they train for all sorts of needs. I'm fairly certain that they don't rescue, but they breed their own dogs.

http://4pawsforability.org/

There's their website. It's a pretty neat organization. I know about them because my friend helped train and socialize one of the service dogs when it was a puppy.

The link that Alchemist provided gives some really good examples of sables. From what I understand (and granted, my understanding is pretty basic) sable is any color with black tips. So most of the hairs start out as one color and have black tips on the end, the tips mostly show up around the shoulders and head and ears. So a red sable would be a red base coat with black tips. Each dog can have more or less black on them. Genetically, I'm not entirely sure how it happens, but it is rare.

I've never seen one in person but someone I'm in contact with through the internet has a red sable puppy. It's gorgeous.

Ah gotcha. Totally missed the 1 the first time. Keep saying I need my eyes checked, haha.

I've got a long while before I'll be running with my pooch. That would be awesome to train with your dog for a half marathon, though. (I've got my eye set on the Disney Princess Half-Marathon in 2015).

That's really neat "pooch to 5k." Helpful if you don't really know how to judge what kind of shape your dog is in.

I knew I had these somewhere. I'm interested in jogging with my dog whenever I get him and he's old enough. I looked these up awhile back but I thought they were pretty informative and interesting, especially the whole dog journal one.

http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/see-spot-run

http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/how-soon-can-a-puppy-become-a-jogging-partner

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_2/features/Jogging-With-Your-Dog_16100-1.html

Even just a mile three times a week can damage joints and growing bones. I would really recommend you wait until you dog is 9months to a year, and get your vet's approval before you start running with him. At 5 1/2 months he still has a lot of growing to do.

How old is your dog? Just be aware that repetitive exercise such as running and jumping can be very bad for growing joints. It wouldn't be a bad idea to teach your dog how to run with you when they're young but you shouldn't actually take them running/jogging with you until they are around a 1 year old when their growth plates have closed.

What other people have suggested seems like the best bet. Run a few steps at a time and reward for calm behavior. Little by little you can increase your steps and get up to your regular pace.

$2000 is insane. Especially just because it was for the color. I love to see dogs that are rare colors and I love learning about all the different combinations. If I had to pick a color that I would say I would like a dog it would red sable. But, that's not what it's all about and I would never choose a puppy, of any breed, just because it was a blue and white or any other color.

The blue border collies I've seen are the same color (or close) to the blue pits. Very pretty!

 

This might not be the best representation, but here are a few pics. I recently helped get 3/4 of a border collie litter into rescue. The one left behind because the owners didn't want to surrender him, was a blue. (I know, I know...cue the backyard bred blue border collies later on...) He was the only blue out of the four and both parents were classic black and whites.

Of course they kept the blue one. Hopefully they will give him a good home and he won't end up in rescue with his littermates if his coat darkens as he grows older.

Thank you Alchemist, that was exactly the link I was looking for. I'd seen it before but I couldn't find it again.

I'm aware of the blue in other breeds such as pits and weims.

Nick is beautiful. And, Alchemist, that photo is stunning. Those eye are just gorgeous.

I'd seen photos of dogs that color before, I just always thought of them as grey or seal. It's silly now that I didn't make the connection as that being blue and white but not merle.

I don't have a dog yet so I can't really vote but at the dog hotel I work at we don't allow dogs to have any kind of rawhide because small pieces can break off and the dogs can get choked on them if they aren't being supervised.

So I've been reading old topics on the boards lately and I came across a post where the author described her dog as being blue and white but not a merle. I thought this was odd because I thought all blue and white border collies were merles. I did a quick internet search and found some information on blue and white tri's, but I thought they were still merles.

I'm passingly familiar with genetics but not particularly when it comes to Border Collie colors. I know people have posted sites that have gone in depth about it. I couldn't seem to find any after a quick search of boards so if anyone could point me to one that would be great.

I guess I just assumed all blue and whites were merles. Is that not that case?

I grew up in a multiple dog household. I was too young to remember everything about having multiple dogs but when I was three we got two puppies around the same time. They weren't littermates but they were the same age and they grew up to be inseparable. They were also outside dogs and could roam our 25 acres freely so they had plenty of opportunity to get away from each other if they wanted (though I don't think I ever saw one without the other).

I've heard it both ways, that you should wait until your dog is two years old and out of the puppy stage before getting another dog or you should get one so they'll be the same age. I think it really depends on your lifestyle and what you think you can handle. If you enjoy the high energy and short attention span of puppy hood and can handle that being doubled then go for it.

Xena is also half Beagle, isn't she? Beagle are used to running in packs so it could be that she would greatly enjoy another dog. I also know plenty of BC's that have other dogs in the family that are happier because of it. The meet and greet will be an indicator of how they get along, but it won't tell you everything that might come up once they are in the home together.

I would definitely suggest getting separate crates for them to sleep in at night, that way they each have their own space.

If you do get another pup make sure you spend ample time with each of the dogs separately. Train them separately and give your new dog plenty of alone time with you so it will bond with you and not just Xena.

A good site to check out is dogfoodadvisor.com It's third party that rates different food. It goes through each ingredient in a certain food and explains why they think it's good or they don't and they give each food a rating with 5 being the highest. Purina definitely wouldn't be considered a premium food but if your dog is healthy, is at a good weight, has good stool, good teeth, and a good coat then you might not want to change. It's whatever you think works best for you dog. If you're concerned it's not the best food you could maybe ask your vet what type of food they would recommend or maybe ask what should be included in a food that you feed your dog.

Thank you everyone for the feedback and the different dog food sites. I'll be living in an apartment complex so I'm not sure how practical having food delivered would be but I'll definitely try it out a couple of times and see. I'll all about a bargain.

I love freezing Kongs because it makes them last longer.

You can use the kibble he normally eats and use a bit of wet dog food that he can digest to make it sticky and harder to get out. Freeze this concoction and he will have to work for awhile to get it out.

You can also go to kongstuffing.com for ideas.