Appalachia

I am sorry, I am going to do what Liz said and take a breath. I do not want to be disliked by the community... Liz, you may be upset with me.. but our goals are the same. It seems we both want to keep the Border Collie what it was meant to be. Please forgive me... I know you can see some of my points. I am 28 years old and I think I have a better understanding of genetics than most people 28 years old, not to glorify myself. I want to spend my life preserving what so many people could destroy, ya know? You are all very right, I do have a lot to learn, and I am willing to listen. I guess I know how easily years of work in breeding can be destroyed in an instant. I am very concerned for the future of the dogs. I know I ain't no genius. But, I have my own vision, and alot of work to do with my dog (I only have 1 right now).I had to figure out genetics for myself, as you all can see, and I formed my own opinions about it, I guess. I have spent many years, reading and reading. I suppose I get upset cause so many people are discusted by line breeding. I know this is the way useful traits have been set and intensified, for centuries, so that there is consistency in the resulting offspring. Yet I also understand how outcrossing has been used. I guess I am adamant about tightly bred animals on specific useful genetics, so long as no problems arise. I spent 12 + years working on and showing dairy goats (Nubians) with my uncle. He is dying of throat cancer now....and the goats are so expensive. So, I am putting my effort toward my dog, because I,d like to field trail her. I have a lifetime of experience with dogs, my grandpa raised and hunted Walker Coonhounds, and English Setters. I didn't know that all caps meant you were shouting, I don't even know how to quote someone like you guys do. Sorry for seeming obnoxious. I have done alot of work with my dog, and she is wonderful. Liz, If you could meet me and see what I've done with her, and I could talk to you and explain myself, you wouldn't think I shouldn't have pups. You would probably like me, as I would you. You know, one of the reasons I am going to have pups is because I don't have much money to spend on my hobby per se. I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to. I am going to get her hips and eyes tested as well. The woman that owns the stud is letting me use him, and not charging me an arm and leg. I am going to have this litter for myself. The few pups I don't keep will be placed in working homes where they will be used and loved daily. And then I am going to spend all the time I can training those dogs for the field trials! I really don't know how to make friends cause I've never had many, besides the dogs. So,please accept my apologies. I probably sound like a pathetic crybaby. I can only do so much to gain acceptance from my peers. And, I will never think it acceptable to breed Border Collies for anything but what they were designed for, a companion Worker.

I said I wasn't going to reply to nasty posts and I did It anyhow. OH BROTHER!

I am not trying to offend anyone, I AM a nice person. Nor am I trying to have battle of the BRAINS here. I have stated my opinions. Rushdoggie, genetic diversity is also a matter of opinion. It has it Pros AND CONS. The magic is that breeders have spent many years intensifying and solidifying good traits, while also weeding out the bad ones. All breeds started from something. I think our gene pool is large enough. The traits I desire are already there! I don't believe in masking or hiding problems by outcrossing, but weeding them out of the pool and going from there! We have something they didn't have called GENETIC TESTING. Outcrossing is useful, but it also a good way to introduce new, hidden, unwanted genetics (MY POINT). Liz P, It was my understanding that BEARDED COLLIES were an altogether different physical and working type from the "Cumberland Sheepdog" type, and other "SILENT" "EYE" "CROUCHING" sheepdogs that were the predesessors of the Border Collie. Bearded Collies had an upright working posture, very little to no "EYE", and gave voice. This is not like the Border Collies I am interested in. It is my opinion that Bearded Border Collie are only a throwback to Bearded Collie crosses that were introduced to the Border Collie lines. I am not interested in "BEARDS" nor the bloodline in which they come from. And, TO ME a closed gene pool IS a good thing. If you get problems ie. less healthy dogs or fertility problems, ya don't use the dog! That is why it is called SELECTIVE BREEDING. Outcrossing will do nothing more than cover up the hidden recessives that caused the problem in the first place, only to crop out decades later. Also, yes, I understand Hybrid Vigor and why they cross the sled dogs. Remember that it was linebred families, consistant in genetics, that produced the exceptional hybrids? And, I am not talking about Kelpies, Liz, I am talking about BORDER COLLIES.... And, on those crazy colors, how many Int. Champs were dilutes and merles? You know what the old time Scotsman used to do with those off colors, they got rid of them! They learned which ones were the good ones from experience. And, I'm ALL FOR the "BOTTLENECK". BOTTLENECKS have produced some darn good animals over the last thousand plus years. The Holstein (Freisian) Dairy cows may have their genetic problems, but they are DAMN good milk cows (none can compete for volume), thanks to a "BOTTLENECK"! "I sincerely hope you take the time to do some research on genetics and breeding guidelines based on our current understanding of that topic before you produce any puppies." Breeding guidelines, Rubbish! This comment was the one that hurt, cause I am sure I have studied genetics as in depth and for as long as would meet anyones standard! I understand Recombination of Chromosomes, and the manipulation of Sex linked traits, do you? My dogs will be genetic tested before I produce pups, and If you don't like my opinions, you don't have to buy one of my pups. I am having pups for myself, not you. That comment was one of the ones I was reffering to as nasty! ARE YOU BEING A GENIUS OR JUST BEING DEFENSIVE? DELTABLUE TESS, I agree with you latter comments about the Border Collies coming from somewhat mixed ancestry, and also about the danger of breeding for color, coat, ect. I want you to know, I am not criticizing your ROM dog, as I'm sure she is a good one, just as I can see you are a respectful lady. SHE doesn't make me nervous, Its the ROM dogs that are destined to be admitted into the registry that are for instance 1/4 Rough Collie (LASSIE type). Or, even more so, the ones that are mixed bred muts that still handle well enough and have enough eye to work stock, but are CARRYING undesireable genetics, that are not of the traditional border collie that has been perfected over many years. I am sure your ROM dog is good, and I also am sure it is 100% Border Collie. I am not convinced, however, that "Turnbull's Blue" was 100% BORDER Collie. I hope I didn't offend you too much, I should have been more explicit in my view. I think you will understand me now, though.

Hello, I have read this post a couple times. I am new to this board. I could not find the dog on this website that goes back to Gotrah Kaspers Kid. Did they take the dog off the website? What ever became of this? If Kasper had obtained a Conformation Champ. wouldn't he and his offspring have been stricken from the ABCA studbook anyway? Was Gotrah Lancelot Lad imported into the United States? Does he have any ABCA offspring? Has anyone found any other dogs in the ABCA that are from AUS or NZ lines? What was said about Mississinewa Prince Val? Did he or relatives have "Fits" (epilepsy)? I found this kinda shocking. The AKC people can do what they want, but I believe we should make a DEFINATE SPLIT and keep our working bloodlines in their purity. In 30 years the AKC dog's coats will drag the floor, and their instinct, eye, and traditional conformation will be sacrificed. NOT breeding for instinct and stock sense, Ect. is a fast enough way to loose desireable qualities (THE BORDER COLLIE QUALITIES)let alone alowing outside blood to dilute and contaminate our genepool! These ARE and ALWAYS WERE meant to be a utility dog, not an aesthetic masterpeice! The ROM dogs in the UK and States make me nervous enough (Turnbull's Blue for instance)! Obviously, he was not a Border Collie! He was PART border collie! I CAN'T BELIEVE THE ISDS ACCEPTED THIS!! I feel diluting the pure genepool will destroy what took so very long (centuries?) to perfect. It may introduce genetics that are not what the traditional border collie was meant to be. I just wish the registries would close, and become purebred registries. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT! I have good reason to believe the ISDS lines are about as pure as they get. I think the OLDER American lines that are exclusively ISDS in origin are too, as pure as possible, and their quality should not be comprimised, so long as they had been bred and selected for WORKING qualities. I worry about the imported show lines from AUST and NZ. I don't want to offend anyone by saying that, but don't some of the AUS and NZ bloodlines have outside blood in them, from back in the day? Isn't that where they got all those odd colors like dilute, ect.. I see ABCA dogs that are Lilac and Grey and such and it makes me wonder if they have outside blood. I look upon them with a condescending eye. I may try to trace back in the pedigrees to see where these odd colors are coming from. I have one woman in mind, in particular, who is breeding Border Collies for COLOR and registering the ABCA! OH,BOY!!! They say, "My dogs work as well as any other, and who cares about the purity as long as the dog works...? Well, I think by contaminating our genepool with "junk" makes it harder to get the BEST dogs to breed from for future generations of good dogs. It destroys the prepotency and consistency in reproduction of the working collie. I guess if the registries are not going to keep the purity and FIXED traits of the breed, it is up to us as breeders to keep our OWN purebred registries. It is basically the integrity of the breeder, as to the integrity behind their dogs bloodlines, and, after readin this post 30 times, I will be studying the pedigrees VERY carefully of any dogs I ever use...... I am not out to offend anyone, nor do I clain to be a genius or "smart guy"! Everyone has their own desires and opinions. But, if we are working toward different goals in our dogs, why not split the breed clean and try not to look back! There is no good for the WORKING Collie to add show lines to it, and there is only so much you can do for the Show Collie on the bench by constantly adding working lines to them. Their is no point of the show bench breeders moving ahead in their goal and vision, and then going back and breeding to the base to something that is not of their "TYPE". I'm sure you Show breeders can see my point in this. Their is no point in moving forward with a plan, just to go back. If you are breeding for Color or the Show Bench, more power to you, and the same goes for the Working breeders, but what is the point of registering Show Bench dogs with the ABCA, knowing that your goals are not those of the WORKING Collie breeders???? The people that are serious about WORKING lines are not registering with the AKC... Please do not post nasty, argumentative messages, cause these are, after all, only my opinions. I will not respond to them. I don't play games... And by the way, It's nice meeting all of you!!! Thanks, Peter