coyotecreek

Thanks for the reply. I can definantly understand your points..but I think mabey I made him seem worse then he is. His age (5) and willful streak make him a challenge. he was also an older shelter pull...he is exceptionaly useful on our place for daily workings and needs..its away from home when the issues occur. Thanks again for the input.

yall have destroyed my plans....these two ewes do a fine job of yanking the tags out, but not ripping their ears. The biggest inconvience is having to re-tag them.

Julie, thank you so much..that explained alot. I am in Texas and browsed the TX Sheep and Cattle Dog site abit last night..but that explanation you just wrote out helped me visualize alot better. Sounds like I may need to go and watch afew in my area to see how a novice novice class is run in my area.

Thanks Eileen...I would like to see what Amanda says..then perhaps I will post in the general area as well? Ill ammend my post. thanks again.

I, like Debbie, simply use my scrapies tag for ID purposes. Occasionaly, I do use the ones like the yellow ones above, if an animal requires a second number on them for whatever reason. I have two ewes who are extremly successful at yanking their scrapies tags out..its quite annoying..I am thinking of going to the button tags instead. I to wait til the animals are a pinch older to tag..or wait until its absolutely nesscary to tag them (sale, show,ect). We used to tag baby lambs and I also experienced ripped ears or droopy ears that never righted themselves. I have a month old lamb that will be accompaning his mother to a show end of this month..Ill tag him just afew days before we go.

I dont know when he will stop being considered "green" either.. He successfuly completed some time with the trainer just recently, who had good things to say about him. I have used him on my place in the past..for both sheep and cattle. This dog lives to work...but is quite single minded when he thinks "he" is right. I have afew problems and while there are some things I know I can do to work thru them, a large part is making sure I am right so he can be "right"...its amazing how if I change, I can set him up for success or have utter chaos. He works my flock of sheep beautifuly..he is calm and does his job..hes always worked abit "tight", so we have been -reiterating the balance point..I am under the impression that he must have chaos to have control, so is purposely working close to push the sheep in front so he gets to head and "restore order"...my trainer's sheep are scared of him..I mean, like really scared. My flock is not..they respect him, but are not scared like my trainers sheep are. I have this fear that when we evetually get to a trial, he will be "to much" energy for the stock there..are my sheep really dumb or really smart or what? LOL When he gets tired or gets mad, he grips..and I have, on select occassion, encouraged him to be mean. He was abt apprehensive to take on a nasty ewe or a pissed off ram, so I did encourage him to help him gain confidence. He doesnt always grip, but its consistently when hes really tired (so we avoid working when hes pooped) and Ive gotten on him when he grips out of vengence. Now..again..my stock at home, he will grip when needed. Most recently my one trouble ewe, while gathering for spring vacc's decided she was having no part of it. she ran over the dog 2 times in his attempts to bring her in..she was not respecting him. He did have to nip her to get her to turn..Ive seen him do this with cattle who do not heed either..he basicly headed her...and then all was right in the world. Could it be ME? could he be picking up on my knowing its not my stock out there and thus is making a pressure cooker? I saw moments of brilliance and I am getting a better feel for working him. The time with my trainer did alot of good..and we are continueing training at home. I got him at two and hes now 5..I know the older start is working against him. If he can be useful on my place (which he is about there) and we can compete in afew AHBA and then USBHA novice classes before he dies, Ill be tickled..and then I can get a pup and hopefully avoid this stubbourn streak. Have you had a dog like this? how did it turn out? How did you, as a handler, deal with any of the energy you are conveying onto the dog? (as I know I am). He is a control "freak", as I stated above.

I went to the link provided by Eileen, that was super informative. I browsed youtube last night to see dogs doing a novice course (I am a definate visual person) and I saw afew that the sheep did not go thru the "panels"..Im assuming driving thru the panels (which were directly in from of the post, so the dog drove the sheep thru the panels as he was fetching the animals to his handler?? am I correct?) is something all trials do? so those videos I saw, perhaps the dog lost points for this part? Do-overs are not allowed, whats done is done type of thing? I also noticed during the penning, the handler walked to the pen, sheep inbetween them and the dog..based on what Im reading, this is considered acceptable, on THIS part of the course only? We are still months off of even entertaining this type of thing..but seeing the videos on youttube made it feel alittle less intimidating and more attainable?

I know this is abit early, but Im hoping some people might be able to point me in the direction of clinics already schedualed, planning to be schedualed, or are normally schedualed for 2013 in the Texas/Oklahoma/even New Mexico area...handler and dog are still green..so something semi beginner friendly is a must. Thanks!

What type of sale was this? a cataloged sale? show and sale? I learned ALOT by attended the Midwest Ram Show and Sale this past June..in regards to different breeds of sheep. I am a dorper person thru and thru..but it was definantly neat to see some of the other breeds..the Montedale was by far the "neatest"..I got a picture standing next to a yearling ram..he was SO TALL!

I raise dorpers. I have a commercial flock and a registered flock and run a fullblood or purebred ram on them both..gives me a good corner on feeders, market lambs and seedstock.

After experiencing a small issue pasture lambing, I now try to lamb in "jugs"..or at least have the ewes confined abit..makes it easier for me to help, if needed...espc with a skittery ewe. My last one to lamb was like that..if she'd been out in the pasture, I dont know what I would have done..I had to pull her lamb and she is not very friendly. I agree with Cynthia on the Dextrose injection..it usually brightens the lambs considerably. Heat lamp or space heater on the lamb, in the house, seems to help with hypothermia too.

Abit late into this discussion, but I watched a ewe lamb, thru NO pressure run into a gate and break her neck, while we were working them WITHOUT a dog..we were seperating the ewes and lambs we had just bought..we ushered her and 5 of her penmates thru a gate..she ran into the panel and broke her neck. It was interesting, as it was the first time I got to see a lamb butchered and the animal did not go to waste for the owner. As a "shepherd" (owner of sheep)..I have come to a realization that stockmanship is about sheep sense..we used to say in order to work a cow well on horseback, you had to work "the gate"..learn how to these animals functioned and thought and reacted. I feel the same with sheep. I think in order to be an feffective stockman/woman, one must understand how a sheep functions and how it reacts. We show our sheep, the flock includes some nice animals (I raise dorpers)..so I am always careful in working to keep the work as stressfree as possible. Even though they are hairs, the 110 degree weather we've had has even knocked them out abit..I find them in the shade during the hot parts of the day. Ive been needing to work the pregnant girls, to give 30 day vac's..and need to work the showsheep, but have been holding off due to the heat. Not to mention, its hard on the dog in the heat too. IMO, stockdog work should always, at its basic level, be about the stock and the dog..not your ego, not "playing" with the dog..the work should always be as stressfree and "easy" as possible for the animals...JMO. While I initially got sheep to work my dog, its morphed into more..and now I have a dog to work my sheep.

My concern would be..protection from potential predators..sheep are not good at protecting themselves and must be "put up" or have some sort of guardian out with them (dog, llama, donkey,ect). Having sheep in with horses wouldnt work for me..Ive watched a horse chase and try to stomp into the dust a sheep..Ive also seen a ram chase a pony around the pasture..just better, IMO, to get them seperate.

they've been lightly worked..our of nesscity more then anything..but if I do put them back in with the general flock, they will get worked when I work the dogs..but good to know..I wouldnt work three young sheep by themselves..get one of my older ewes who has been worked to work with them

Well, then I may keep the little buggers til they are old enough to butcher..I have folks who want to buy halves..but not live animals..the buyer still may come thru..but who knows. I know when I was looking for sheep, I wanted EWES..so I could breed later on..while wethers are unproductive to an extent, these would have afew months and then they'd be eaten.. thanks for the thoughts