Gloria Atwater

She's adorable! And I have my own pair of demonic yellow eyes, here, so I know the feeling. ~ Gloria

I understood, and thank you. I try hard to be kind and diplomatic at all times, because I'm still way down the learning curve, myself. Just because I have opinions doesn't mean I know anything. Regards, Gloria

Because almost every working litter has both male and female pups. Very few have red pups. It's kind of mathematical. The majority of red pups you'll readily find for sale will tend to be from agility and/or show lines. It will just take you longer to find a litter with red pups from good working lines. Especially if the litter is sought after and there are prospective buyers known to the breeder as sheepdog folks, who get on the waiting list ahead of you. ~ Gloria

I suspect that will be the trick. Broaden your search, search diligently, and be prepared to travel or have a pup shipped, and that will increase your odds of having a red pup from true working lines a great deal. Cheers ~ Gloria

"I wake up to the sun peeking behind the tall firs into our bedroom window. A little breeze wraps around my legs as I go get firewood. My Pete makes coffee, and then eats breakfast: lamb chops, goat milk in my coffee, nothing in his. He goes out to do his wildlife chores. I pull on my tall boots; the mud is deep next to the barn. The dogs know exactly what time to meet me at the door to go out and start feeding. The little black pup, Sweep the Broom, whines a bit as he knows he isn't allowed to go down to stock yet." So begins the journey that T Martino Yamamoto takes readers on, in her book of prose and poetry, "American Lambs." T is, if folks are not aware, our very own "Tea," on these boards. Thoughtful, poignant and warmly humorous by turns, this little volume is a gem I'm pleased to have in my little library. In sparing, perfectly-chosen words, Tea knows how to touch our hearts, warm our souls and make us chuckle fondly. She knows, too, how to gently, keenly bring tears to our eyes and make us think deep thoughts: about life, about the land, about our dogs and animals and our relationships with them. If you have not picked up this book yet, I recommend that you do. It's short enough to read in one long, leisurely sitting, and dense enough to take small bites out of, savoring each chapter and verse. I keep my copy in my downstairs guest room, where I can more easily share with the travelers in my life. I hope you'll take a little detour into Tea's words, as well. It's worth the time and worth the minor cost. You can purchase your copy here: http://www.outrunpress.com/catalogue/ Respectfully submitted, Gloria

And in case we weren't sure, those are male stud dogs. As opposed to ... uh ... I'm trying to figure out what a "Texas heeler" is, that the Aussie-ish looking one has purportedly sired. Wow. That there is the future of stockdogs, by gum. I do feel kind of cheated, though, that it never dawned on my hubby and I to call our two old BC/Aussie-mix cowdogs "Border Aussies" all those years. "Bossies" would have worked real well with the eldest! Cheers ~ Gloria

Eileen, you just gave me the best laugh of my day! ~ Gloria

I'm glad you asked this, because I've also wondered what this outfit's game really is. For one thing, they say (spelling theirs, not mine): "The breeds we want to work with are herding canines, the breeds will be: Australian Cattle Dogs (blue and red heelers), Australian Sheperds, and Border Collies, or a crossbred combination of any of these. Our goal is to help the customer build the best stock dog possible. The customer can choose to raise a full blood strain or cross breed the animal as he or she sees fit. There are many unregistered stock dogs and we want to give you and your canines the right to compete." To which I ask, compete in what? If a dog is recognizably a working breed, it can get an ILP to trial in ACK, and if the dog's owners want to trial it in AHBA or ASCA, they don't need to be breed-registered at all, just a tracking number. Plus their pointed preference of those three breeds, to the exclusion of all other stock dog breeds, is arbitrary and odd. So ... I'm kind of curious about them, too. Cheers ~ Gloria

Well, out West the saying is, "green as grass," so "spring chives" ain't that far off! Cheers ~ Gloria

Hi Maja ~ I would not consider myself wise enough to be included with Mr. McCaig, but if I've said anything of interest to others, you have my permission to translate. I'm sure you'll find a more elegant word than "newbie" for your translation. Cheers ~ Gloria

Just to toss in food for thought ... When a dog appears to be working for himself, I think sometimes it's because he, A) isn't clear on what we're asking of him, or B ) doesn't yet trust that we've got it right. When we're newbies at the sheepdogging business, we've got a lot learning to do, ourselves, on getting our timing right, our signals consistent and read our sheep correctly. So if a dog seems to be working for himself, it may be because our own inexperience is making our handling of him inconsistent. I know most (possibly all) the times my dogs have "blown me off" are because I've failed to communicate with them clearly and correctly, so they're either confused or mistrusting that I've got it right. Because I don't, always. Cheers ~ Gloria

Oh, dear. I hope my responses aren't the ones creating displeasure. I assure everyone that my response to shock collars was directed solely to the original post, in which someone asked: "Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...)" I offered my opinion on e-collars as regards working dogs, because that's what *I* have. I certainly don't roll eyes at the many people out there who love their BCs as pets and companions. Slinking away, now .... Cheers ~ Gloria

Oh, please don't think I was aiming my comments at you! I was just stating an opinion in regards to the initial post, with emphasis on my feelings towards e-collars and stockdog training. Bark collars I regard as a little different thing, and in cases such as yours, they may be the only recourse. It's great you've found a solution that keeps both you and your dog happy. Cheers ~ Gloria

I can't speak for the use of e-collars on any other breeds, or for any other purpose, but I loathe and despise the use of them for stockdog training. From what I've seen, the end result is most likely to be a dog that's shut down, mechanical and hesitant, using only part of the natural talent it would display if it were trained, rather than punished. I actually saw an Aussie that would *flinch* from a sharp verbal correction by twitching its head to one side - anticipating a shock even in the absence of an e-collar. I'm sure e-collars have their place in the dog training world. But I abhor them. The best cure for a bad behavior is to stop it when it begins. Cheers ~ Gloria ETA: I made this response to, and only in response to, the original post, which asked, in part: "Ok - let me have it. What are peoples opinions on training collars (i.e. "stimulus" collars / vibration collars ect...)"

Well, darn you, Mr. McCaig, for derailing a perfectly good panic kerfluffle with common sense. ~ Gloria

*snork* Well, I've been suddenly afflicted with whistle dyslexia, so we should make quite the pair. See you there! Cheers ~ Gloria

Hi Carolyn and Jen ~ I put my entry for Spencer's Pt Pleasant trial in the mail yesterday. Pro-Nov, here I come! (At least I'll have all winter to work on the things I do wrong, there.) I'm glad it will be the same sheep as Pleasanton. The only complaints I had there were with my own handling of the Maltese cross in the afternoon runs. P/N is on Thursday, according to the Spencer's entry form, so ... see you ladies on Thursday the 28th? I'll be the chick with short blond hair, wide-brimmed straw hat and a terrified look on my face. Cheers ~ Gloria

Porterville is a fairly long drive for me, but then what isn't? I've been eyeballing that trial and we'll see. At some point soon I REALLY need to stop spending money, so I'll have something saved up to trial with next year! (Plus I'm hoping on a trip to the UK in May....) My trainer is trying to talk me into Spencer's Pt Pleasant P/N trial on Oct 28, as my debut into Pro-Novice. Mapquest says that's only about a 3 hour drive for me, which is a lot closer than Porterville's 6+ hours. So ... I may wait until the spring trials before I try P-ville. But we'll see! If I want to get some trialing done next year, I'm gonna have to do some driving and that's a natural fact! Ouch, Salt Lake is a long-ass drive, but dang. That could be so much fun ... The Nevada Contingent really needs to do a group showing somewhere, some day. Cheers ~ Gloria

Exactly. ~ Gloria

You got it, Jdarling! On all counts. I'm almost tempted to delete my previous post, but what the hell. She intimated I didn't know what I was talking about, so I'll leave it stand. Think I've about talked myself out, here, anyhow. Time to go fix dinner and contemplate working my dogs tomorrow. Cheers ~ Gloria

Tea, doG love ya! Thanks, I needed to laugh.

I knew if I stuck around here long enough, I'd get bit. Hang on, folks, I'm just clearing the air for a moment. Yes, as a matter of fact, I have trialed ASCA for the past 9 years, though only with border collies. I finished a WTCh on my old Jesse two years ago, (it took him a while to decide he'd work poultry) and my young Nick finished his Started titles this year. In fact, with the aid of a sponsor, I entered Nick in all three stocks one weekend and he took 1st in every single class. Two days of trialing. Nifty buckle. No, I didn't know the judges and yes, Nick worked his ass off. Especially with the cattle, which soured fast and tended to bolt for the re-pen. I'm sure the ASCA experience varies from trial to trial and place to place. Over-dogged and course-trained sheep can happen anywhere there's an arena trial. Nor will I argue that there are no-instinct, "bounce-and-bark" Aussies out there winning titles. In another discussion, I could even point them out as an example of what we're fighting to NOT let the border collie become. But I can't swear to how ASCA trials go in Idaho or Oregon or wherever. I can only speak for what I know, at trials I have attended in Nevada and sometimes in California. However, we can agree to disagree on the merit of AKC trials. I've trialed in that, too, in years past. You see, I'm not a border collie snob who's never sent a dog around an arena course. I'm a 10-year arena trialer who's finally breaking out to a new and wider world. Cheers ~ Gloria P.S. My apologies, folks, do carry on with the original conversation.

Sidebar to the discussion, if folks will forgive. I was just looking at AKC course descriptions last night. Their "A Course," the most common, is at maximum 200 x 400 feet. That's not yards. One rarely sees an AKC trial in an arena that large, however, so courses are generally smaller, and yes, they never vary. Wee outrun, around a post, towards the fence, then through a Y chute, a Z chute and a "holding pen", all on the fence. Finish with a wee cross-drive through two panels and repen. The dogs that AKC judges seem to put up for awards on those courses are usually those who just patter along quietly behind those course-trained sheep, everything in nice, straight lines. ACK has a "B Course" that is basically a novice-sized P/N course, but you almost never see it. ASCA has 2 basic courses, but the stock differ and the judges at least prefer dogs who actively work, show some pizazz and get into the job. Still an arena course, but not as mind-numbing as ACK. AHBA ... I will humbly defend AHBA courses, because those are honestly limited only by the course designers' imaginations. AHBA has certain elements they want to see on a course, and drive legs of certain distances, but you can configure your ranch course as big or small, outdoors or arena, or spread between outside and arena work as you like. I actually enjoy those courses because they do include ranch work such as gate sorting, loading in trailers, putting through foot baths, driving them across bridges and down unfenced lanes, etc. No, AHBA is not to be compared with a 400-500 yard outrun and an International shed, but it is the most "realistic" of the non-USBCHA venues out there, and the least artificially restrictive. If a dog is shut down to that ACK pitter-pat pace, odds are he simply won't get an AHBA course done. Unless, that is, the designers are too conservative to really create a challenge. There's a gal I know who is training her little white Poodle to work sheep, a la AKC. Really. It's hilarious! Cheers ~ Gloria

I would love to! If nothing else, we could say, "Hi, we're the Nevada Contingent." Seriously, though, I do hope our paths will cross. I sneak over to California from time to time, and I'm hoping to make it down to ... dang, I think it's Porterville? Where someone has a fun N/N - P/N trial in the spring. So if not in Utah, maybe we'd meet up sometime in CA. Though I'd love to take in Utah. I've only ever been there once, riding with a truck-driver friend to Salt Lake, so I'd be delighted for an excuse to go back, sometime. Where and when is Kelly Creek, and do they include P/N? Cheers ~ Gloria

*waves* Howdy from the other end of the same state. Yup, active USBCHA handlers are scarce as hens teeth in these parts. You're one. I'm ... well, hoping to be another, at some point. Though I'll be in Pro-Novice next year, for starters. Like you, I'll be driving over to California to trial, since there are exactly NO border collie trials in the entire state of Nevada. Dunno about Utah, but it's 9 hours away, so ... We do what we gotta do. I'm pleased to see that distinction. As a newer person on these boards, I'd be wondering just today, "But what about all those dogs who never set foot on a trial field?" Your description matches what I'd been pondering. A trained, useful, essentially finished dog. I'll go with that. Interesting discussion, but I'm too sleepy to brain further tonight. Cheers ~ Gloria