Mandalark

I get your point. Thank you.

I've been on this board a long time, I understand it's a working driven board. I was merely informing the OP of a litter I know of. They are free to make a decision past that point. As I've said. All of MY dogs are ABCA, and have great drive and work ethic. They come from some of the best working dogs around here in Oregon. I get it- I know all about the fight, I've had BC's for a long time. I'm not here to fight- thanks.

That's such a blanket statement. I have seen AKC bred dogs with great drive, eye and work ethic, And I have seen crappy ABCA bred ones. I don't support Bc's bred for conformation alone, but I have seen and met some lovely dogs that were more on the agility-like side with plenty of herding instinct. To say no one should own one that is AKC bred ever is a little over the top. If you don't want one, don't get one- but to bash the breed you love or accusing sound dogs of being crippled is silly. You think Hob Nob bred dogs excel in agility because they can hardly walk? (Some of her dogs are ABCA bred as well as AKC and have nice work ethic) I just don't understand the hatred I guess.

You know, I have met some AKC lined dogs who had great eye and drive, *GASP!!!* not all of them, but some do. People want different traits for different dogs. My 3 are all ABCA, but guess what- my oldest male stinks at agility. He's very long and lanky, very 'crouchy'. Makes tight bendy turns hard for him, and jumps aren't so elegant. However; he's a work of art in the field with enough power to make sheep tremble at his presence. I don't know if you know much about horses, but we will look at the Paint or Quarter horse for example. There are so many 'lines' within those breeds, that you can have one bred for Halter (conformation), working (cow/gaming), Performance (English/western pleasure/jumping)- they are all the same 'breed' but bred for different purposes and look nothing alike. I do western pleasure, so I looked for bloodlines with those qualities. I wouldn't purchase a halter horse to do performance or vice versa. It's OK to own a border collie that heaven forbid isn't strictly ABCA. If you want a working dog then absolutely!! I love my 3, they all compete in obedience, flyball, and are accomplished herding dogs. But say I wanted an agility superstar- one bred like my male wouldn't be my first choice. And what I mean by predominantly- is that one parent is ABCA, the other is ABCA/AKC. It's ok to have choices, as long as there are still working breeders out there the border collies roots will be around for people to enjoy.

I have a dog from Butte Ranch, there are things I disagree with about them, but my dog is smart, outgoing, talented and healthy. She's the best! I know of another breeder too, puppies due in June. Predominantly ABCA bred. You can PM me

Oh I entirely agree with you. The people I got my pup from I have kept in contact with and so far they don't have anymore litters planned or anything, so I have not seen sure fire signs that they breed on every heat cycle or things to that nature, *so far* anyway, I've only known them for about 9 weeks now, so not to say they don't. I hope they are not, but if they ARE, what do I do? Not recommend people to them? I really hate that there's nothing stopping people from just breeding, and breeding and breeding poor dogs that have no choice. <rant> -on a personal note- My old 4-H leader had 13 German shepherds when I met her, that was.. 10 years ago, at least half of those dogs should be alive today, but none are. They all one by one slowly starved to death. I had even called the sheriff before, she convinced them they were "kennel' dogs and were supposed to be that thin, they believed her and let it go!! So more dogs died. They killed each other out of hunger, hung themselves on choke collars and so on. It breaks my heart that I couldn't have saved any of them. What can people do to help stop backyard breeding? Not that good dogs can't come from it, but honestly shouldn't. Just because you are a reputable littler you shouldn't charge thousands for a pup. that's why some people turn to backyard I think, same breed, lesser price. I work in a grooming salon and as a dog trainer, and the thing in the grooming salon I see a lot of that makes me sooo angry, is the $850+ GOLDENDOODLES and LABRADOODLES and these people strut around like they're purebred!! If you want a lab, get a lab, if you want a poodle, get a poodle, why do you have to cross them?! They are "Designer" breeds and some sell for far more than purebreds! They have nothing to judge them against, they have no standard of perfection! Ugh, its infuriating, its not a 'new breed' its more mixed breeds to fill the shelters. *sorry about the rant* And why does every other person I meet for training own an unsocial 9month old Pitt bull or Pitt cross... why can't people gets labs, or something less likely to massively injure someone? </rant> Anyway, I'm sure they've probably had some pups from them come through the rescue, I asked her if she had and she beat around the bush. "I don't know that they came from there for sure." I always recommend people that are getting rid of their BC to contact a rescue first so they can at least properly place the dog to a hopeful permanent home.

I see very valid points in this post and have been battling people's opinions about the pup I just bought. She is a wonderful pup, I watched the parents work sheep, I played with the parents, and each pup over the time of a few weeks before I decided on one. The breeders and I still talk and have play dates with my little girl and their dogs. They guaranteed me that if she has any health problems within 3 years they will take care of any vet expenses along with another pup if I so choose. She is ABCA registered, healthy, smart and perfect for what I wanted. Now sounds great right? and I think it is, but I met a gal at a local pet store (was scoping out competition, since I work for a competitor, hehe) and had Rose with me. One of the workers who has a border collie rescue was petting her and asking where I got her. I told her a breeder from (my small hometown) and she says "Oh.. They're a regular little puppy mill." And I look confused. "Excuse me?" She goes on to tell me they "Tried, but can't make it in the herding world" and that they "Breed dogs that shouldn't be bred." Now I saw their property, their dogs, their sheep, cows. ect. Everything looked great, healthy, well cared for, I saw no signs of puppy mill, they didn't have a lot of dogs, and the ones they had were well taken care of. A good friend of mine who trains dogs also, told me she is probably just upset that I bought one from them instead of getting one of her rescue dogs, and that a lot of people are hard on people who do herding, and if your not in the top, they snub you. I felt a little better after talking to her, I love my puppy and I watched the breeders turn down people they didn't see as a fit match for the pups, so I didn't understand why they were being dissed. Their dogs slept in the house, they were not 'big name' people, but they were sincere about finding the best homes for their puppies. They had many pictures of past pups in new happy homes as well. I chose to get one from them and not a few other breeders that are close, who's pups are $1300-2500, because of a few reasons, for one, the expensive pups were AKC and ABCA, they were pretty, but looked to have very little herding drive. Also, a gal asked "Why do they charge that much?" I had no idea how to answer.. "Because they can." Crazy! Not gonna drop names (but I will if you really wanna know. haha not slandering anyone, just weren't the right pups for me.) but there are 3 breeders close to my area that charge SO much for puppies, and for some reason I imagine yuppies buying them thinking they'll look classy in their backyards... doing nothing. Ugh. Anyway! I totally agree with you!