Conner22

While I agree with your post, the problem was instead of studying aggression , since friends convinced her it was jealousy or obsession, thats what she'd research, or talk to behaviorist about! The aggression issue was brushed off to the side ENTIRELY !

Hooooray! So far so awesome. I seriously just swat his butt, say "no" and send him away. Like magic! He just calms down and quits!!!! Thanks all!

Argh! Why is aggression so *acceptable*? A "person" has a dog that is obsessively possessive about her. But the real "issue" is that when something 'triggers' him, he responds with over the top aggression and WILL not stop until you physically pull him off (another dog). He will grab scruffs, necks, shake dogs violently, pin them, has bruised dogs faces for days, left puncture marks, torn ears.....AND everytime he has an incident, various trainers and friends of the person convince them its 'a jealousy and training issue'. No. No it is NOT a training or jealousy issue. Jealousy is a TRIGGER, the issue is the overly violent reaction. But when you DISMISS the problem like its 'just' a training/jealousy issue, it takes from the severity of the issue and the real problem. And the person walks away thinking "I'll just train more"...... this is killing me. End soap box

Thanks to all replies! I'm ready to implement!

Delta blues: he doesn't nip, at all. He obsessively annoys. Like if your little brother kept poking your arm and saying your name. I will try physical correction, since I've tried just about everything else. I've pushed him from other dogs personal space, walked him out of room, kennelled him, redirected with training, yelled, shut doors, long down stays......its not fixed it. If anything he gets more obsessive after a correction or redirection. But its not all day, more occasionally. But trying to get him 'out of the mood' is difficult when after starts.

Yes. I have tried "NO" but I have not swatted his butt yet. Will try it. If I threw a bottle of change it would punish EVERYONE.

My 2.5 yr old border collie loves to annoy other dogs. I say love, but he doesn't look happy when he does it, but he won't stop. He literally 'bothers a dog til he gets a reaction, apologizes, then starts the behavior again. Following right on another dogs heels, circling dogs, pacing around dogs, sitting on dogs, accidently pushing his rear against dogs sides, etc. Its almost obsessive compulsive. I can request he stop, but he will go back to it the instant he has the chance. I can redirect, seperate, reward, calm, but it will not stop the behaviors. He doesnt do it 24/7, but probably once/twice a day for 20 min. What is this behavior called, how do you fix it, where do you look up info on it?! Is it sibling rivalry? Boredom? Agnst?

Looking for tips or good books for a problem. I have a 4.5 yr old purebred nueter male who comes out of working cattle lines. He is a very unique dog, in that I think he is mentally off. He took 20x more effort and training and has a low retention rate (for anything). He is very happy all the time. He is given alot of physical /mental outlet. He nips: people, dogs, kids. He gets excited when meeting new dogs and "nails" something. Its infrequent, highly managed, but still occurs. He's nipped me, 3 humans, and est 10 dogs. Never a mark or injury, but it hurts, scares people, and is oveall something I want to stop. My biggest problem with it is when he fixates I can't get him back. Expect a nip, or a play bow (most dogs don't notice they were nipped). If you scold him for nipping he apologizes. But it won't stop the bahavior. I can get/keep him super focused on me, but that doesn't fix it cuz all thats doing is preventing him from noticing. Once he notices he's fixated. He mostly triggers off dogs but did nip 3 people. So a majority of people he meets he is fine with, and a majority of dogs there's been no issue. Its mostly on a greeting, when he's put in a sudden situation and he has to make a split second decision. He always chooses wrong. :-(

My brothers live in MT, and when a dog needs gone- whether health reasons, upsetting stock or going after kids, or simply old age- many vets do NOT live close by (and euthanasia is expensive), and the nearest dog shelter I believe is 3 hrs away.... So that pretty much leaves one option.....

Thanx guys! I'm loving the suggestions. I'm definitely going to give it a try! (What rootbeer wrote!).... We just came off a break, so i will try alot more reinforcing and simplifying.... We DO have fun...when its going well... but as you all seem to have noticed, it can be very frustrating at times... and of course THAT is NEVER fun for either of us! If I notice stress still after the fun and reinforcing excersizes, I'll try the break. I really like the idea of rewarding for the bar- he would totally get that too- that it's not a big deal its on the floor, and it'd be easy to teach a thinker like him not to touch the bar when jumping later on after the stress is gone. I also REALLY wanna try handling with no bars, and introduce the bars as his confidence builds! This WILL definitly simplify things, and i think I'll see alot of good response from this! Simplifying things helps him the most, and this would let him focus on moving with me vs EVERYTHING!

The overthinking mistakes- I guess I do mark it, by not praising- so if he gets off the contact and messes up his 2o2o, I dont "praise" him, i just have him jump on from side, THEN reward.... I'm not sure how I'd do it different, but am open to suggestions. For the jumps, when the bar falls- he stresses. This is something he's done since he was younger, and I don't "correct" it, just don't praise it either. Bar drops- he starts looking over shoulder worried- just what he does..."like oops I dont like that...." Typically we just go on and I try NOT to mark it, or I'll put him over it again and give him cookies! Is this what you are suggesting?

oh, i should say- i've NEVER tried to run without bars and then switch up the sequence. Its definitely worth a try as he'd only have to focus on the handling, and not so much at once. And maybe after i get the handling down add the bars up??

With no bars, and just uprights and tunnels he'd go thru it, and be pretty happy. I think our problem pops up when he wants to overthink- which is pretty much jumping or 2o2o, or handling manuvering. Say for example i set up 16 and 20 inch jumps 5 in a sequence and add a tunnel and weaves. He'll do well, and then better as we repeat it. BUT if i change something, like if i want to REAR cross a jump and have him do a different sequence (with the same set up), it throws him for a loop and he'll need to be baby stepped up to the rear and new sequence. This is why i get a little baffled with him. one moment he's "good" and drivey, the next he is overthinking. And then he often when overthinking makes a mistake (which is NEVER corrected) but HE knows he 'messed up' (bar drop or something) and it'll throw his entire flow off. (Oh NO!!!!). Which throws his timing and jumping off, and makes him distracted. I get "baffled" because he has this "lack of ability to generalize" even tho he's relatively easy to train. So i wonder what to do with him- do i need to step back, keep trying, etc....! When we are off of agility i usually just do hiking, frisbee, and trick training. Is this what you are referring to? THe susan salo excersize (by her standards) would be a disaster- but I was happy with it because at the end he UNDERSTOOD the bounce/stride i wanted. I never thought of it as micromanaging, but you are absoutely right! And if he is a dog that is so worried about "getting it right" i'm sure micromanaging makes it WAY worse! (does that seem right?) I am "retraining" my other dog conner to jump (focusing on jumping not so much on me) and thought it be good to do aslan as well. I figured if aslan learns young the proper bounce and stride, and also to focus on a task instead of handler focus we'd do well when we started. (and ounce of prevention.....) but it may also be encouraging overthinking what should be a simple proceedure for him right now.

Oh and I started the jump in the susan salo excersize low at 8-12 inches. I was trying to work up to 16" or 20" but never got to 20" as i just wanted the proper behavior more than anything else and I kept having to break everything down into baby steps. Also- when i say "firm " commands i mean calm confident orders in a positive way. Like the way you'd normally say "sit" or "stay". I was trying to clarify that i was not baby talking him (as this often makes a dog who is worried stress more).

Struggles how? Knocking jumps or motivation? What are the behaviors he is exhibiting that lets you know he is stressing out? He struggles with getting it. Like he LOVES to overthink things. For example, with contacts, he does 2o2o (since 3 months he does 2o2o). When we are practising a contact, he will drive up/down the contact, but when he reaches the 2o2o spot, he slows way down, you litterally see his brain working as he carefully tries to "remember" the exact spot/placement. WHen doing ladder work, the first time (even tho he's done this since about 4 months) he very carefully focuses and moves very careful. Then quickly picks up the pace and is trotting thru the ladder properly. He also has issues "generalizing" I think is what it's considered. Like when I do rear end awareness training- i dont see ANY improvement in rear end usage in typical life. In agility class, the rear end awareness only helps (but makes a big difference) for that ONE class (if i do a session right before i start). He'll stride nice, good takeoff/landing, proper jumping. But if I DON'T do rear end awareness before class, he'll be a "mess" and jump sloppy. ALthough I'd classify him as intelligent and easy to train. he has all his "basic tricks" down pat. : Come, down, stand, sit, roll over, stay, sit pretty, play bow, shake off, heel, shake hands, bring up your toy, etc etc We've been off on a two month break, but when he was in class, by the end of the session it was "information overload" and he'd quit (just not do agility) or do poorly. We started learning his "quit" cues and would end maybe 10 min early on positive note. he'd go from running a short sequence to refusing to jump, going around a jump, ignore the course and jump on me wiggling all over. As for stressing behaviors: He does the wiggly movement, moves very slow, jumps up on me, looks worried, refuses to jump, jumps poorly, OR knocks a bar and comes over for "reassurance", or just downright quits and trots off. How old is he? When did you start training? Started at 3 months- with basics. Did low jump work around 8 months. Did full height (16") at a little over a year because growth plates had closed. Also to work up his power in rear end, did alot of single jump work. He is NOW almost 2yrs(march) If he loves his tug toy, why are you using food targets? Is he food motivated? He is both motivated. i was working a susan salo excersize, in which dog is SENT to something. he would not send, he would always just check in after excersize, quite happy with himself. I was trying different things to get him to send to TARGET (not me). Not very successfully either. I would direct every time, and he would get toy/food happy, but I had to direct him, as he was busy "checking in" with me. Actually technically speaking, I had to completely shape the susan salo excersize. It was her basic excersize grid, with one set point (at 8 inch) 4ft away from "one" jump (2 jumps put together like a double). I had to click in order to get the "right" bounce btwn set point and jump. every time i changed a jump height Aslan first had to take the jump, THEN start at set point, other wise he'd go around the jump. Even tho excersize asks you send a dog to a target, he would not go to a target, and relied alot on my movement forward to have proper speed into excersize (stride/bounce). If i did not move, he'd hesitate at the jump, inadvertently messing up the stride as he'd overthink/overcollect. Once i did all this, he'd do the excersize "properly" as in, i was getting the desired behavior. I built up to no handler movement, and my self being distant from the jump. He is drivey when? In what circumstances, doing what activity? Playing tug, with toys (frisbee/ball) with other dogs, loves herding games, is drivey in agility when he's not stressing or overthinking. At 3 months old he used to "herd" the waves on the shore (to give you an idea). This dog is very EAGER. Can barely (but does) hold a down/stay when doing any of the above mentioned. this dog can tear his pads (bad- all 4) and never even show it till he comes inside. It is hard to even have a clue what is going on without watching or meeting the dog or watching you train him. Can you video tape and post to the list? Will try to video it. Just a thought tho- I wonder if he is used to considering ME the reward- as in short sequences he'd be rewarded by a tug or treat from ME. I am suspicious that he was viewing the 2 "jumps" (set point and real jump) as a short sequence. And in a short sequence, he'd be relying on handler movement to understand direction and would come in for a reward after jumping. Sorry it took so long for a response. bwn working, internet been down for a day, and yestereday the cat turned off the computer on me when i tried to respond - haha!