shysheperdess

I know the positive only discussion vs correction gets REALLY old on these forums...but this was quite the interesting read and has sparked some debate/changed some perspectives in our training circles...a must read for anyone who has trained/worked with dogs or is planning to.. http://www.balancedtrainers.com/bloggers/entry/a-silent-killer

I have known Susane personally for many years, I can assure you she is one of the most responsible breeders I know...puts a huge amount of time and effort into planning her breedings and doing all the health testing. She breeds only once every 4 years and only when they are ready for another string of trial dogs..she is hugely active in the stockdog community and very knowledgable....I know if she recommends her females aren't spayed until they are older it's because the latest research indicates that's what's best for the health of the animal and she takes the future health and well being of all of the animals she produces seriously... Knowing others who's dogs have been plagued by genetic or cicumstantial health problems with there dogs/and working with rescue groups, having a breeder be so concious about what they are producing is relief.. She CAN be a little over the top with some things.....but it's only because she cares so much about the well being of the animals she has and the ones she intends to produce...

Rarely now adays do you find a trainer who bases there methods in correction...I think what Mr.McCaig is saying is that for field work, SAR work, competitive obedience, etc. you will not find trainers using PURELY positive methods of training...where there is NO correction...I am quite close with a few SAR trainers/field dog trainers and competitors and alot of there methods are similar to the ones I and other succesful trainrs/handlers use with competitive obedience.....MOTIVATION MOTIVATION MOTIVATION!!!! Fun, positive....with an occasional correction where needed.....but the people who train for these disciplines do not use the more popular "positive only" techniques that have become the rage with agility, pet and some people who consider themselves behaviorists...

I find that funny that people are giving you flack for having ABCA registered border collies. It's the norm in the competition world where we are at. Most of the dogs are ABCA registered, then either ILP'd or open registered with the AKC. All my dogs are from working lines and originaly registered with the ABCA, I acutally don't believ anyone has ever asked me what my dog original registry was? MANY of the working-bred dogs are wonderful competition dogs....which usually shuts up any doubters I am sure who have the gall to question there breeding. That must be a very un-fun environment!!!! I would have to smack someone if they were continuously asking about my dogs original registry or pedigree!!! LOL!!!

I know it can work It's just not for everyone, and not for all situations! I believe it to be a very offective tool for pet people who know how to use it properly, and an excellent way for shaping behaviors and foundaition work. I can give credit where credit is due

Kinda funny, unfortuntely the hundreds of people that walk through the doors at the training school I work at come from Petco, Petsmart or a "positive only" training place, treats, clicker and gentle leader in hand....and a completely outta control dog.

I find that because I have always been consistent, mean what I say and have always taken a "no nonsense" approach with my dogs, I have never needed to use any sort of "alpha" techniques with my dogs. It seems to be people seek these methods out AFTER they are having problems! I do however, practice a "settle" with my pups where they are on there side, hardly any kind of "alpha rolling" tho! LOL!!

I would have to disagree, I see it being far "trendier" lately for pet people to use "positive only" methods. The main pet store chains are passing out clickers like candy. I see the same trend with parenting children and so forth. Wanting to be a "friend" and not an authoritive figure. I would agree that the whole"alpha" thing and "lowering the dogs status" does get old, but alot of pet owners/dogs can benefit from showing there dog strong leadership skills. This can be AS simple as being consistent with manners and limits or, depending on the dog, a more authoritative approach may be needed.

I teach "heel" and walking on a loose leash seperately. Heel is a competitive obedience exercise for me, while walking on a loose leash is a manners/respect issue. I don't make walking on a loose leash very complicated at all. From the time they are pups I just don't ever let the leash get tight. It take some balance between patience and disipline but I have never had a problem with any of my dogs pulling. when my pups hit the end of the leash I stop, give a little tug and praise when they acknowledge me and come back to me. If they go right back out the uend of the leash I stop again, little tug when they hit the end and praise for staying near me. I also apply this to older dogs I am walking or helping with. If the dog is a real puller or just being overly obnoxious a prong can be put on and the same basic technique used. Mild correction followed by praise. You can up the ante with an exuberant dog as well, by applying a tug at the end of the leash followed by praise and a particularly yummy treat. Pretty simple. I just don't mind sudjesting a prong for someone like the OP having some issues at this point with getting the pulling under control. for the dogs safety and the owners sanity!

Prong collars are an excellent tool to use if used correctly. Like Lenajo sudjested, ANY method used incorrectly can be cruel. I find the prong to be the SAFEST collar to use. There was actually a study done on the use of different collars, and the prong was shown(used correctly) to be the safest and have the least amount of neck or tracheal trauma. People are put off by it's look, but put it around your sleeved arm and give a tug and it is NOT by any means a tool of mid-evil torcher!!! I find for most novices, using the prong is the simplest way for everyone to have a happy walk. Happy owners = Happy dogs = more walks = less behavior problems = less dogs in shelters. So if it works for you, great! I cringe much more heavily at the sight of a dog lunging and pulling, cranking it's head on a gentle leader! Being lead around like a horse!

LOL!!! Good luck with that Flyer!!! Take plenty of pics!!!

I think dealing with a situation of "fear" versus a situation where a dog is over-stimlulated or in "prey drive" mode are completely different. I am not sudjesting that there is not more than one way to deal with things but if a dog is having a "fear response" of any kind I know that using a correction of any kind is the worst thing to do!!! Where as dealing with a dog in a state of "high prey drive", or over-stimulated you would handle that differently. In using more positive techniques you would probably work to make sure the dog didn't reach that threshhold in the first place, or teach the dog that when he does he should look to you are what not. I find this more "management" and you run a greater risk of the dog chasing if not "managed". I might get knocked off my socks by using this comparison but when training a young, exuberant dog on stock(which I am right now), when he plunges teeth first into the sheep because he is in such a high state of arousal (much like a young dog mis-placing his working drive into chasing cars) a physical correction or pressure is warranted. To get in through his thick head! If I wanted to I could put enough correction on that dog to "turn him off" if wanted. If you have seen a dog turned off to working stock they are very distrubed and it takes some coaxing to get them going again(this is obviously NOT what you want when working stock and you used TO MUCH pressure)Young dogs/pups especially are pretty impressionable. OK, maybe not a good example as I don't want to compare working stock in any way to chasing cars. Understand I am mostly trying to compare that high state or drive or arousal experienced by the dog! SIGH, just a different perspective maybe, flame away.

Sorry RB, again over-reacting! You have been nothing but curtious/respectful in your posts! It's hard to tell intent in written form sometimes!! Carry on

Absolutely RB, I was actually just kidding! Sorry if I offended you!!! I meant it literally by saying that this was just my way that wrorked for me, not saying that yours wouldn't or didn't work for you! I was mostly joking because I expected to get a two page post about how horrible I was from you!!!

SIGH, another "positive only" approach versus correction, can't we all just get along! LOL!!! I know RB, you will not be surprised by my approach to stopping car chasing with my pup but I will share because it worked for ME! Not saying something else might NOT have worked but this is what I did and it worked perfectly!!! Alright, I am absolutely with Julie on this one, this is a serious situation where your dogs life is at stake. Desperate times cause for desperate measures. My dogs are in situations where they are off leash alot and I don't want them even for a second THINKING about a car! It is also best to try to eliminate the behavior the minute you start seeing it in your pup/young dog otherwise, the longer you let it go even a little bit it WILL resurface again!! Sadly when you least expect it. So if you are settling for letting your pup "just look" at cars and not chase, this will turn into chasing at some point!!! SO, I normally do NOT condone the use of a prong collar on a pup under 6 months old, BUT like I said desperate times, dangerous behavior, etc. So I took the distration approach at first. It worked a little, I could get my pup to pay attention to me when there were cars around but this approach required me to ALWAYS manage him. It didn't get rid of the behavior it just "covered it up" and I don't doubt if my pup was in a situation off leash or if he was being wlaked by someone else he probably would have reverted back to wanting to chase. SO, I decided to try a harsher approach. I put the prong on my then 4 month old pup. With a loose leash or long line we went out to the road, pup saw car pup took chase. Took a hit at the end of that collar and........ my dog is not 3 years old has not so much at LOOKED at another car since that moment. Was his little puppy brain boggled at what had just happened, probably a little. Did he look at cars again after that...no. Has it damaged our relationship in any way....not at all. The beauty of using a prong in this situation is that the correction is not coming from you, it is coming from the collar. You don't have to physicly touch the dog. The collar does the correcting. You say nothing. The pup associates the negative correction he gets at the moment he is in chase for the car, WITH that car. Car chasing is self rewarding to the pup/dog, so when pup chases car, gets an unpleasant of enough correction associated with chasing that car that car chasing no longer provides what it did. Like I said, the thing about using the prong in this situation is the owner doesn't HAVE to get in the dogs face. I persoanlly have no problem doing this but alot of people are uncomfortable with it and like someone mentioned before if you are uncomfortable doing it, it will not be effective. The owner in fact during this needs to show no emotion and say nothing.

Wow RB, my hats are off to you and your work with your dogs. I can understand your perspecitve better now! I to have a noise phobic little bc who was abused, I would NEVER correct her!!! Her owner had a heavy hand with her and it has ruined her, after a year with me she is finally starting to trust. I want to try some agility with her and will be using ONLY positive methods!! I MAY even pick up a clicker one of these days I would welcome ANY tips on how to deal with her noise phobia??? It;s kinda funny, she is an AMAZING little heeling dog to!!! like a mini hackney!!! But I would never try to compete with her either becasue of her fears. Maybe someday we will be able to work up to it??? My first dog was a rescue collie, she has severe agression issues but she was my heart dog I got into obedience just looking for an enjoyable activity with my dog and we both loved it so we never looked back

Fair enough RB, I really do wish you luck. I read you posts often and admire your determination, creativity, and dedication. You obviously love your dogs dearly and who can ask for more than that. And for the record, when I was sudjesting an "ask the expert" part I didn't mean me I would be asking competition-related questions to!!!! We all have something to learn from eachother!!!

Pam, wow a foot touch, I would be intersted in hearing about that! I don't mind rubbing on my leg a little! I love a dog that is enthusiastic and when learning I find they so badly want to be right so they will hug your leg a little, but as they gain more confidence that usually lessens a little I did tell Maggiedog that I LOVED her little dogs enthusiasm!!! Great little dog, nice start and nice heeling style. I guess I just commented on her forging because I have STRUGGLED with forging with my guys!!! So I know that if you don't insist on a further back postition it will be something that you struggle with over and over!!! That was the main reason I told her aboue that and hope I didn't come off wrong to her. I can be a little....blunt

OK, here is the one where she is competing at the trial she won. I love watching them!!!

OK, I THINK I did it?...... LOL!! People think since I am young I should automaticly know how to use computers!!! I don't!!!!

Pam, I don't know how to put the vid on here? On utube type in heeling, reason. The video is kinda far away she has 2, one of Reason heeling and one of her HIT run at a big time obedience competition. This is an amazing team, and the dog is a wonder to watch heel!!!!

Pam, maggiedog didn't really know where correct heel position, she exclaimed that she thought it was right at the shoulder and when I explained that ideal heel position is idealy with the dogs ear at the seem of your pants she was surprised. I also asked her if she was in the beginning stages of training or not, then the way she was working her dog made more sense and I could understand why she was maybe training the way she was. I don't expect the dog to BE in correct heel postion right from the start but I reward at correct heel position right from the start. I'll try to find a good heeling clip My current dog actually doesn't really heel "head up". It's uncomfortable for him..

As I said before, I came on this chat to give someone interested in learning competition style heel work(for obedience, never said anything about freestyle) because I have experience in training this succesfully from my years competing. I didn't intend to get into a debate really about different training techniques because honestly, this could go on forever and when it comes right down to it we will just have to agree to disagree. I am promoting the methods that(in my experience training and competing and by working IN a training facility with other competitors, and by knowing many succesful competitors) work! This is valuable info that has taken me years of trials and tribulations, ups and downs to figure out!So I was just trying to help someone getting started be succesful if that's what they want, they can take it or leave it. You have to understand my frustrations to an extent when someone comes on sudjesting techniques that they haven't even tested themselves in a competitive obedience ring! Which anybody know, the different behaviors taught in dog sports ARE very different!!! The way I train ALSO brings out the best in my dogs and that is apparent in the success we have as a competitive team and our strong bond at home. I do put my heart and soul as well into working my dogs and anyone who know me knows that. How convenient that you don't want to compete in obedience RB. You have spent the last couple pages explaining why your methoids of teaching sustained heeling should be taken seriously and can be applied to a competitive obedience situation. I just find it amusing that most of the people who have participated in this thread and have gone against my method of using a collar tug have never really competed in obedience. That's why I wish they had an "ask and expert" section for people asking questions about the specific sport who would get advice from experienced competitors. I would never be as bold to say that I would be qualified to instruct someone on freestyle!!! A very well respected trainer in this country who competes at the top of the Agility, obedience and herding circuit (she just got her MACH and therefore her triple championship on her bc) that someone intersted in competing needs to find an instructor who is not only knowledgable and obtained success competing in these venues with there dogs(meaning at least an OTCH, MACH or HC) but who has the gift of passing this on to there students. I would strongly urge anyone intersted in competing in this wonderful venue to seek out an instructor who meets these qualifications and who implores the methods you are comfortable with, or in my case take private lessons and work on your own. RB and PAm said that there are no limits to what you can do? well apparently there are, and it starts with a simple Novice Obedience ring. Like Journey I put my hands up long ago.....waving my white flag! To each there own!!!

Pam, how exactly did not not understand what was going on with Maggiedog? I was trying to help sudjest she target her dog in a way to better position the dog, she was not in correct heel position! Nothing I was sudjesting to her was corrective-based! did you even read my last post to you?

KP, it is common to start a young dog with a prong/slip or choke but hopefully by the time they are actually ready to compete they no longer need it If the dog is going to not perform because they can feel the difference whether they have a training collar on or not probably should not be in the ring yet