ejano

My boys were born on a farm with alpine goats - one of which had a real attitude. There was something about the way the eyes were set and the goat's challenging stare that sent them to the moon. They were barking much more hysterically than you describe from the time they were about 3 months old to maybe 8 months old - less than a year anyway. They would also go nuts at the sight of the sheep. I basically used the click to calm method, without the clicking. Whenever we visited, I found their comfort zone and worked inward from there. If they barked, we turned back and started over. When we got our own sheep, they also reacted. We spent a lot of time walking through the alley way past the pens until they stopped barking and lunging at the pens. It takes time to dial down the excitement, especially if it comes from their working instincts kicking in. The unfortunate byproduct of this is I believe that I trained a great deal of Robin's take charge attitude out of him. He works willingly and has quite a lot of push - he keeps the girls moving but if he is challenged, I hate to admit it - his first thought is to back off. He got knocked around pretty good by my Shetland lamb this summer when he should have showed his teeth and gotten stern with her. Instead he took 3 quick butts to the head and the look on his face was, "What the heck?" We are now learning it is okay to snap and on rare occasions, nip and Little Miss Dickins is learning that he isn't the pushover she thought he was. So my lesson was, for every action (bit of training), there is some kind of reaction - it is worth thinking out exactly what you want the dog to be capable of.

Jovi - we're not quite ready for prime time but I was thinking about doing one.... we've got to get a bit faster and I'd like the boys to wear their hats I agree about being careful that the pup bonds with the human rather than the other dog. We were so careful to be sure that the boys didn't bond to each other that we didn't watch Ladybug and Brodie too carefully. He is her shadow and it would have been better if he were his "own dog" so to speak - he would have been more able to stand up for himself when necessary. Liz

Every situation is different of course. Our Ladybug immediately took over the pups upbringing - tolerating no nonsense from either of them - she was such a good mother that I'm sure she must have had at least one litter of pups before we got her through the local SPCA. She taught them pack manners, bite inhibition, and above all, respect for the Ladybug. Even at twice her size now, Robin still defers to her in most matters. The challenge is, of course, that you don't want the dog unfairly bullying the pup. You want them both to know that you are in charge. For example, for 2 years Ladybug owned the ball - any ball was hers to fetch. Last summer, Robin decided that it was his turn to own the ball - and now that Ladybug has aged, she cedes to him in distance but if it's a short throw, it's all hers and she's a very good blocker. Brodie rarely gets the ball even though, as the fastest, he generally gets there first, but he doesn't touch it unless they are taking turns under my command. Then the others cede to my command and Brodie gets a turn to be first. So you can see, they have established their own ranking system with an occasional coup, but all of them respect my wishes even though it might contradict their own rankings. We do a great many things that require taking turns with equal participation. Winter is our "silly tricks" time. To my husband's dismay, the boys are currently learning to bark "Jingle Bells" with Ladybug ringing a bell at appropriate moments. As silly as it seems, it still requires discipline and a lot of interaction between me and the dogs. They have had to learn a hand signal, to wait their turn to bark, and to bark only the number of times I ask each time. They enjoy the attention from me; it is mental exercise, and they seem to enjoy working together. (I am also wondering if this tandem training will hold me in good stead should I ever start working the two of them together on sheep.)

You've done some great things to help those dogs - I wish I could report I have been as successful. There have been some small changes so I think perhaps someone talked with the owners. There is now straw in the dog coup. I did manage to talk to the owner myself yesterday but with no success. The dog is a female, 12 1/2 years old. He bought her as a pup from the Amish. With no training, she was good at doing what he wanted with the cattle. He no longer has animals. I offered to give the dog a good home and he said the dog was nippy and defensive (no surprise because she's on a rope!) and wouldn't want anything to come back on him if he gave up the dog. I explained that wouldn't happen. Then he said his kids would miss her - they play ball with her now and then. Then he finally coughed up the true reason why he has her - she's a watch dog and not friendly to strangers. We talked about Border Collies in general and older ones in particular. He said that he brings her in on cold nights - and that he was planning to get a run line. I showed him Robin and talked about how I feed him and Ladybug (same age as this dog, suggesting that some wet food in addition to her kibble would add needed calories to her diet for the winter. I left him my husband's business card which he carefully tucked in his wallet and told him to call if he wanted more straw. I felt a little better after talking with him. At least he knows that someone is watching the dog's condition and we parted on good terms so hopefully he knows that he can call if he gets fed up trudging out to the dog coop.

I tried to really pay attention to how the dogs were gathering the sheep today. I used the cones to give me a sense of the distance between where I thought the dog should be and where they actually were in relation to the sheep. They only go straight into the sheep when they are asked to bring them toward the pressure. They both head straight toward them push them toward the east (away from the pressure), steering them around a bit then when they think they have them under control, turn them toward me. When they are working away from the pressure they seem to naturally go wider, slipping between the sheep and the pressure (the barn) and gather them much more lightly. We turned to work on a north south axis, the goal being to 1) get the dog to take a flank without signaling and 2) keep the dog from orbiting. The distance is shorter so they are more likely to go into a fence. One problem with this is that Robin likes to drive the sheep into a fence corner and say "Gotcha" so we're working on flanking as soon as we get close to the fence - sending him between the sheep and the fence to bring them back to the center of the field. It worked pretty well today - our fourth straight day of working. I did a couple of things differently, including taking the long line off Robin. He was much calmer - it must zing through the grass and set him off a bit. It's a crutch at this point. I can call him off and he's much better behaved walking off lead. Today, for the first time, as we ended the lesson, Robin seemed keenly aware that he was bringing the sheep to me for a reason - to put them through the gate toward the barn and we worked together, as suggested and I was able to catch him before he circled around and chased them back from whence we'd come the first time we headed for home so we ended on a successful note. (Brodie got the easy chore - he put them out in the paddock. Next time they reverse roles.) Now we have to put "take time" back in their vocabulary... .

So you may have a relative of my Little Miss Iris? (I have four Shetlands myself). When the dogs get too close - where she can't see them behind her - she turns and stamps her little baby feet (she was a May lamb) and lowers her head like she is a giant ram. If they don't crowd her, she's cool. Oddly, she is my tamest sheep (which is saying something because all of my sheep are tame!), always inquisitive, always first at the fence, and definitely first for a handout. She and the three others flock better than one might expect of Shetlands because they hang with one of the "big girls" a Clun/Tunis who is a burr. (And no Shepherd's pie for this one, Sue . Her natural black fleece is puppy soft.)

My paddock is about an acre - split into two sections, the larger being about 2/3 of the whole. It's a good practice area - flat, even ground. It looks, regrettably, like a well tended lawn. I send one dog out to bring the sheep through the gate, then tie that dog outside the fence and take the other one in to work at a few things. Then, I take a break and switch off so both dogs get a fair chance. The other one brings them back to the barn lot for me. Brodie is a bit barkey on his tie out and since I have raised the alarm about a neglected dog about a mile away, I fear the cruelty officer is going to find and fine me instead! (That problem has not yet resolved itself but I am determined - I've got the officer half convinced to confiscate it at the first snowfall. I also need to call to remind her that there are coyote and bobcat in the area and the dog is essentially defenseless.) At present the sheep are off the larger section, eating hay - essentially dry lotted to give the back section a rest. I have adjoining areas I can fence off with electric fence to give them more grass next year. In the spring, they've got to get down in to the meadows and the orchard during the day to relieve my grass and to do the job for which they were hired. There's 20 acres of grass down there for them to eat. I have traffic cones that I can use for this exercise. I've been using them as points on a triangle - drive here, turn there so we'll mix it up a bit. It is a good idea to really think about my expectations. Though I am an enthusiastic observer, I don't ever see myself trialing either these dogs or another one. I had a small stroke last summer (post-cancer, weird things can happen) that make me slightly less able to think on my feet in new situations. If I saw my dog taking off into the next county with a packet of sheep at a trial, I might stare after them stupidly.."Interesting... I never knew that dog could run that fast..." and not take appropriate countermeasures. On home ground, I am very comfortable with working the dogs and able to react appropriately because I am in familiar territory. So what I want is a good working farm dog. We need to do some groundwork to continue to reinforce who's giving the directions - Robin still ignores me at times and Brodie is an independent thinker like his mother but the idea of giving them tasks every day has great appeal. We'll give some of these things a try tomorrow. Thanks

Thats a good idea -- but a tiny problem. I had such a spot for my old dog. It was just a pile of old blankets she could sleep on (she was also free to sleep on our bed or the downstairs couch). BUT about a year ago, my eldest cat had radiation therapy for a benign thyroid tumor. Somehow, it changed her behavior (though her tumor is 100% cured now). She has started wetting any bedding, towels or newspaper left on the floor. I used small throw rugs - mainly because Robin went through a helluva chewing phase when he was a pup. He absent-mindedly ate part of the arm of my couch, among other things. I do have soft beds now but he still prefers his rug.

Dear doG, please tell me someone suggested you put a shock collar on a reactive dog? Whoever suggested that should be wearing the collar! Same for the prong collar. If you were really using those when she nipped, the problem self-propogated. See stranger. I will be punished...chase stranger away. NIP! ZING. Didn't NIP fast enough. I'll get that stranger next time and I won't get ZINGED. Fear reaction reinforced. (And me beating head on desk!) Also, if you are constantly switching your approach, that in itself is a problem. A reactive dog needs a calm, steady, predictable person. I can understand and endorse the muzzle when you need to take her out. I love the clicker for training tricks and obedience and it helped our reactive dog a great deal. He was attacked and the clicker was a large part of helping him to understand that good things happen when another dog appears. The nothing in life is free (NLIF) works very well too. Everything from supper to a casual treat is earned. They don't have to do cartwheels. It can be as straightforward as my boys going into their crates when I say "Crate". Then they get their dinner. (BTW don't casually feed the dog from the table). If you don't want to crate her for her food, ask her to sit, or lie down before you fill her bowl. You can also make her wait a few minutes before she's allowed to eat. It sounds mean, but she will begin to understand that you are running the railroad, not her. Trick and obedience training keep the dog busy and mentally active. If you had an older dog, you may have forgotten as we did, just how much exercise a young dog needs. Even at 12 1/2, our Ladybug needs a regular run each day. It keeps her fit, agile and happy. She is also proof that an old dog can learn new tricks. We're working on "wipe your paws" and of course, our Ladybug picks it up first because she's our best and brightest girl ever. I feel for you; I really do. Look at doing positive things with her and be firm with the rules. It might help to write down the rules you want her to obey. Try for two or three in the beginning so you don't get confused. What do you want the dog to do (besides not nip people!)? Do you want her to have basic obedience (Sit, lay, etc.) Do you want her to do tricks? U-tube is full of great ideas for trick training. Some of the things my dogs do is pick up their toys, ring a bell to go outdoors. Again, NILF - they wait to be released to go out of the door - not just beat feet the moment it opens. They "toot their own horn" - a bicycle horn, ring a jingle bell and I'm looking for another simple instrument they can play so I can have a three dog band. They play Frisbee, fetch, catch, tug on a hanging rope. I have had a tether ball in the past but the two boys are pretty rough. It would last about five minutes. I give them a big, hard jolly ball to chase once in awhile. And oh, yeah - we do that sheep thing :)/>/> which is the best of all! The point is, you are in charge of all that is good and wonderful in your dog's life. Anything you do with the dog reinforces that you are in charge of her world and she can trust you for a predictable reaction. Give her a spot that's hers so she can retreat to it when the world gets rough but let her know that you own that spot so she doesn't get the idea that she can defend it. Make her move off of it on command. (Her spot is not your bed, by the way - give her a simple throw rug and train her to go there.) Another suggestion I was given that I found most helpful is to keep a journal. Every now and then (set a time i.e. on the hour), take a long considering look at the dog. What is she doing? How is she acting? What is her environment? Write it in your journal. When you take her out - write down her surroundings and how she reacts/acts to those surroundings. You may uncover some things and you'll have a dispassionate report to give whomever you decide to consult. ETA - "hard" dogs indeed do care very much when you yell, scream etc. It's part of the breed make-up to take a correction and not sulk or melt into a puddle - but keep on working. If you treat her fairly, she'll be good for you. Your household has a similar set up to mine. I work at home. The dogs ring a bell when they want to go out and they don't wander off to sleep on the bed. They have beds here in the study. It's all about rules and who owns what.

Tell me about balance work - what exercises can I do? Both my dogs seem to be responding well when I move but I'd like to do more with them. They both need to widen their outrun more as well. I can send them both off balance now with a verbal command (no body language) and they do a wider outrun at that point to lift the sheep. If I'm standing right beside the dog, they're more likely to go straight in. We're not yet working very long distances - perhaps a hundred yards. I want to widen their outrun more. I look down at the small meadow (which is actually a pretty big field) from the end of the paddock and think - where will we end up when we are cut loose down there? I am going to put up electric fence so I don't want any crashes. I am also still finding them extremely reluctant to bring the sheep back toward the barn. I don't know if it is an instinctive reaction to the strong pressure or they simply know if the sheep are back in the barnyard, they'll have to stop working. Maybe both? They know the sheep will bolt if given half a chance. They'll bring the sheep to me all day long if we work from the barn out to the pasture, but the reverse isn't so easy. When I walk half way out to them, they'll fall back and let the sheep come up toward me and we wear to the gate. I've been working at taking them through the gate; then sending the dogs back to the barn to get the sheep -that is, to not always just quit when the sheep go through the first time. They're both very good around the gate - slow, steady, no pushing the sheep over top of me. Our progress has been slow - we're at the point now where I wanted to be last year. The dogs know their flanks and we can do simple chores at home without ending up in an incredible tangle. If I want one sheep, Robin will sort that sheep out for me and hold it - Brodie is still so concerned that they stay together, but it will come. Both take a look back command. I've learned to read them better. Robin is still so incredibly focused on his work. Brodie is very light and easy. He loves to do his job, but the intensity isn't at the same level. He is - restful to work, if that is the right word. I always have to be right on top of Robin to keep him from getting too "into" the sheep and shutting me out, but with Brodie, one quiet word now and then will do. ETA - I have been keeping a drag line on both dogs but oddly, I have found that Robin listens far better if he doesn't have a line on. Why would that be so?

You really have to work overtime to protect your dog from thoughtless people. Our Ladybug (normally a very calm dog but extremely ball focused to the point where I suspect she may have had some training in flyball) literally tore molding from a door frame in a frantic effort to get to a tennis ball being bounced thoughtlessly by my brother-in-law outside the bedroom window because he thought it would make her "feel better". I'd tucked her away in one of her favorite spots for a snooze during a family gathering just because of his previous idiocies and she was happily perched on a pillow on the bed where she could see out of the windows until he started his nonsense. He's lucky she didn't go through the window. Because of his idiocy now, sadly, Ladybug goes into the mudroom in a crate with the mere mortal dogs and she's not happy about it.

You know - it sounds farfetched about the slipper, but I had a dog who had been disciplined with a shock collar in his previous home and I realized that static generated from brushing him set him off. There can be multiple reasons why the dog is the way she is - figuring them out can be challenging and interesting. and yeah, sometimes it is the handler's issue. If she doesn't trust you enough to take care of her - or feels she must take care of you, or simply doesn't respect you enough because everything in life is free to her, that can cause nipping as well. You can't always be sweet and cuddly with BCs - some of them will run right over top of you if they don't respect you, my Robin among them. I like a dog of that type, but not everyone does or can handle them. I liked the first suggestion - take the dog to a sheepdog handler - a good one that really knows the breed. Use the funnel method and work your way down from what you know about her.

Protect your dog. Avoid letting the situation build up to the point where she is overstimulated. Take her away long before she red-lines. And keep idiotic people away from her. Your insurance company may pay one bite claim but not another....

Love the husband story . My husband spent a whole morning filling in craters, then came in for a cup of coffee, looked out and dirt was just flying as they re-excavated. What fun! Easy digging! Our boys dug like gophers in their first year. I hung up a tether ball and gave them some other big yard toys and it gradually stopped.

It might be the motion that is a trigger - For several different reasons, including his herding instinct and the fact he was attacked, Brodie has a tendency to over-react when things come at him too speedily. Think about her "eye" - does she fixate on things? Because she's nipping after the people pass, is she trying to corral them in some way? The car chasing is another "round it up and bring it home" behavior - and it's a killer. Also - I'd keep her away - far away - from the baby. Just my two cents and I know others have done it differently and I myself was raised by a BC, but when you have a dog that is an unknown quantity and a fragile child, it's not a good mix. If she is clearly telling you that the noise the baby is making is driving her nuts, do her a favor and give her a break. Okay, there's baby , isn't it nice, now lets go have a nap ourselves...before the baby starts to fuss. (Sets my teeth on edge too . I hate to hear a baby cry - give it anything in the world, just don't let it cry - and if you can't stop it, I'll be back when things wind down...). My homemade rule is that if the kid is taller than my dog so their faces aren't eye level, then they get to play with them. Your recent post of the incident at the pet store illustrates my meaning - putting yourself at eye level does something to a nervous dog - they don't like being stared at. Ladybug was left at the SPCA for nipping at a toddler that was pulling her hair - our lucky day, but she could have also been just as easily put down for doing so. Thankfully the powers that be thought she was really a good girl under a great deal of unfair stress. Liz ____________________________ It's interesting when my 24 yr old daughter brings her 3 month baby over, she gets real uneasy when the baby cries. She'll go to the patio door, and leap up on it to get away from the situation. She's doesn't nip at the baby, which is great, so I guess she's controlling herself by trying to remove herself away from the situation. My dog didn't like small toddlers when I got him as a puppy. Now that he is 5 and is more confident, he will let them pet him without a problem. When I had a chance and the toddler and mother were agreeable, I would give the toddler a treat so he could treat my dog when he approached. Jovi

My husband has that kind of energy - children and animals just love him. Ladybug adores him - he is her "person." She was frightened of everyone in the world for some time after we brought her home - except him. When we went for a pup, we signed up for a male and DH thought that if there was a red one, that would be nice. Robin was the only red male born in the litter,so he was ours. We had signed up for just one pup but from the time he opened his eyes,Brodie (pattern white) was fixed on him and would not leave him alone when we'd go to see Robin. DH says its because Brodie knew he wasn't spoken for - people signing up for the litter wanted females and Brodie and Robin were, of course males. Robin was the pick, but when it came time, DH was hooked and we've not been sorry to have them both. That's also how we ended up with Lamb Chops - our whether. He literally stalked DH when we'd go to the farm to see Tulip (his twin) whom we had picked out along with two other ewe lambs and remains his faithful friend to this day - does he know on some level that DH saved him from being the star attraction at someone's Easter dinner? DH takes his sheep for a stroll in the near field while I work with the dogs and the other sheep in the paddock and the neighbors almost believe he's in his right mind...He's also a Santa's helper - had one mother in tears one year because her Downs Syndrome child who was afraid of Santas because they had been not too kind to him in the past went right up to him and gave him a hug. He's a good man, my DH. .

During our series of lessons on sheep this fall, I became more aware of - and amazed at - the smallest nuances my boys pick up. Even something as simple as taking a breath will cue them. We would talk about the plan for an exercises and the dog picked out and reacted to information in the conversation - ... makes you wonder (like with kids) why they aren't so instantly obedient all the time . I have also noticed that the more work we do with sheep, the more responsive and obedient they are at any other time. I wonder if I as "keeper of the sheep" have earned some more respect from them as it seems a different kind of relationship than working at obedience. My boys always lay down when asked but now they seem to teleport - I don't see them fold, they are just down. Instead of waving my hand to get them to sit up on their haunches, I just lift one finger and up they go on their haunches. I really did learn a great deal at my lessons this fall...my dogs appreciate it. Winter's closing in though I think we'll get some time on sheep tomorrow.... Liz

Ilove this photo - so like my Robin - if he's caught in some crime, he turns his head and tucks it under his arm like a chicken going to roost. The other day the three of them started rooting through a box of children's toys and started to take turns dissecting a "stuffie" . Unfortunately the "stuffie" talked. It sings (or rather, sang!) a counting song if you touched its paws or feet. Brodie stared and stared, unable to believe it spoke "human" Robin turned his head, as described above, suspecting something was going to come down on him. Left on the field, so to speak, Ladybug savaged it to the last squawk. Our little Ladybug is such a spoiled girl that she has no fear of being caught out - except when she infrequently tips the kitchen trash over in a fit of pique because she's been left out of a trip.

Wasn't the USDA trying to change kennel licence requirements? (Just for my information - I wasn't closely following the debate). This anti-tethering campaign is interesting....I'm going to contact my state representative to see where she stands on the issue. I don't understand if a cop can pull you over when you are doing something wrong, why a dog warden can't knock on a door and say - hey, does that dog have a license? Where's your rabies tag? Years ago we had such a knock on our door when we lived in town - we had a nice Terrier mutt and a BC cross, both adopted from the local SPCA. They had a pen outside and, of course, were inside with us most of the time. The cruelty officer knocked when Ken was home and asked to see the dogs, their licences, their certificates, any recent vet visits, the whole shebang. He handed everything back to DH with a surprised look saying, "I really don't see what the problem is here, Mr. "Smith" - your dogs are better treated than a lot of kids I've seen." DH said, "I know what the problem is - Mr "Smith" lives across the street (directly behind our house). I'm Mr. "Jones"! And most certainly, a little terrier dog - brown instead of cream colored but otherwise much like our Willie was out in a dog coup behind the house while the couple and their five children came and went - much like this little dog that concerns me. It had a wooden dog house and a food dish - just like this little dog. Animal control confiscated the dog and the family was not allowed to adopt another form the SPCA. It just so happens that our OTHER neighbor who had a bird's eye view of the family's back yard was a board member of the local SPCA and a second neighbor was a major patroness of the same organization so I guess between them, they had more "juice" than I do now...I knew them both quite well - sadly one has died and the other moved away. Perhaps its time I've made some new SPCA friends...

Diane, this is a wonderfully happy ending story - thank you for sharing it.

Update - both the dog warden and cruelty officer have checked on the dog. Both times, the rope was not tangled and it was in its house and had a pan beside it that they assumed was food or water - they can't go on the property of course, and the dog is some distance from the property line. The cruelty officer said she would continue to keep an eye on it and if/when the snow prevents it from getting into the dog house they can do something but at the moment, it has everything that the owners are legally required to give it. Food and shelter - albeit a poor shelter but it has a roof - I felt badly for the cruelty officer - she was young and sympathetic. I do believe she will continue to keep an eye on the dog - and so will I. If I see the people outside, I will stop to offer to buy the dog - they don't answer their door or telephone messages. This is a good example of the emphasis on the wrong things...the USDA should also address some issues related to individual ownership. I guess if the dog warden busted them for no license, no rabies shot, then he'd have to go after "everyone" - but I recently got a ticket for running a right on red signal (I honestly didn't think that one had to stop if the intersection was clear!) and I know for a fact plenty of other people do the same thing I did at the same intersection and most don't get ticketed so there's really no difference in my mind. Liz

I agree with Gloria et al - put the fear of doG in him. It will stop. Robin was a pushy bully with Brodie when they were 6-10 months old - part of it might have been a working reflex kicking in, part hormones and part just plain domination - he was a very pushy pup right from the start and today he's a very hard eyed, pushy dog. But he's also respectful of me and other dogs now. One day I caught him coming around the fir trees out of what we called the puppy "clubhouse" ( a barrel with both sides cut out) hot on Brodie's heels and scared the bejasus out of him. I didn't need to smack him, I just ran at him like a maniac yelling WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING! in my most growley voice. It stopped him dead in his tracks and he hit the ground like he did as a young pup in the litter when he knew his mother was after him.

I thought it might one day slip its collar...but it's a bit growley and shows it's teeth... It does weigh heavy on my heart - I take better care of my sheep (who have a grand shelter) and visit with them longer each day than that dog gets and they're supposed to be outside! Spoiled creatures, my sheep. They had animals when they got the dog - beef cows and a flock of chickens. The dog worked...at least I saw it gathering the chickens. They got rid of the animals maybe a year ago... it's just another sad example of get a dog for a purpose, then when the purpose doesn't work out, kick it out. I can take a photograph from the road and send it to the SPCA Cruelty officer, who is apparently based 3 /1/2 hours away now! Edit - and yes, if I see the man, I'll offer to buy the dog. Rescue said I had to own it before they'd take it in. Cashing my check will mean its mine. I'll just have to be ready when I see them outside.