ejano

We have nine sheep now, four shetlands and five Tunis cross - all independent thinkers. We've extended our pasture out onto the hillside using Electronet fencing. (Just as an aside, putting up the electronet and the solar charger had to be the easiest thing we've done since we 've gotten sheep. Zip, zip and it's done.) The sheep have an entire hillside of grass and absolutely refuse to go in there because each time they do some darn fool puts her nose on the fence and they all go skittering back to the barn at full speed I'm using Robin to push the sheep into the new grazing area, shutting the gate and leaving them there for short periods of time to get them used to the place. This is a big step for us. Robin is working at about 400 yards out, sometimes just out of sight, though I can see the bigger sheep as they come through a dip in the pasture so I know what he's doing. He's having some difficulty keeping the entire packet together. He usually brings me 7, then willingly goes back for the two escapees. Today, he brought six. I sent him back and he brought just one as Snowdrop had apparently evolved and went to hide in the barn, taking one of the little ones with her. I sent him back again but he didn't find them. He didn't realize they'd gone in the barn so he was very reluctant to leave the packet he did have to look for something he couldn't see. He kept turning back to the ones behind me perhaps thinking he ought to bring those to me and he'd done such a good job so far I didn't want to keep correcting him for doing something wrong when I couldn't explain what to do right, so we called it a day. Obviously, if I close the barn doors, the sheep will stay in his view and the immediate problem will solve itself. But on a larger scale, I want him to trust me to send him out to look for sheep he can't see. How do I help him find the other sheep when they are out of sight?

I think you've already been kicked around about this one, but really???? I like my dogs better than I like 99% of the people I meet. Still, I would not ever keep a dog that I couldn't trust around my child or his friends when he was growing up. We're older now, rarely do little ones come to our home and when they do, they don't get to play with our dogs, especially the one we got through rescue because she nipped a toddler that was pulling her hair. It's a hard choice for you to make but it sounds like it just isn't going to work at home. This might help - We are so grateful for the person who gave up Ladybug - not they way they did it mind, stuffing her in a shelter the day before Christmas. But because they gave her up , we have had 9 wonderful years with a delightful girl who filled our empty hearts (we had lost two dogs and cat the year before.) She is our best girl ever. So if you know that your dog will find a good, comfortable home, with someone who loves him as much as you do, that might help to make it easier.

Merles and reds are also considered "candy coated" if they are bred for their color first. If your primary criteria for choosing a pup is for color then you may be overlooking more important factors, including health, personality, and aptitude for what you want the dog to do. It's what is inside the dog that counts first - the breeding and the dog's personality and aptitude. I don't think physical appearance is irrelevent - you have to like the dog after all, and the way it looks is part of the package. It just isn't the whole package. We chose a red tri puppy from a litter out of working stock, health-checked parents who were not bred for color. He was a large boned male with a heavier coat and very pushy even as a tiny pup - all things I liked about him. I wasn't all that attracted to his red coat color at first - especially those gold eyebrows! - but it was clear that he was meant to be mine and now I can't imagine life without my Red Dog because of what is inside him. He has become everything I had hoped for. He has a solid, even temper and a strong work ethic, a powerful but biddable personality and he has become a larger boned dog with a heavier coat. Because of his size, he's not the speediest dog in the pack but he's fast enough and he'll work all day. We are becoming real partners. So the answer, in hindsight, is to decide what you want out of the dog, find a good breeder, then if there is more than one pup that meets your needs, pick the one you like the best.

Years ago when we lived in town, we had a dog that nipped the mailman. We got him when he was a year old - he was our first "married" dog. He seemed a good family dog and was especially fond of our young son. After the incident, dog specialists told us that tying the dog was accerbating his protective attitude and also making him fearful because he couldn't escape a threat - he could only zealously gaurd his territory. We were advised that since we wanted to keep the dog, we should use a long cable run behind a fence when we needed to put him out so the dog had access to more than half of a large yard but couldn't escape the fence should he take a notion. The dog proved that no barrier was to difficult to cross when the need was great as he one day stretched the cable as far as he could, snatching a mid air bite off a meter reader on the other side of the fence then fell gracefully back to his side of the fence, still snarling because the unfortunate man's trajectory was toward our son. Myself, the meter reader, and a street cleaning crew down the road were witnesses to this feat so amazing that no one thought to report it and in fact there were kind words for a dog that so loved his boy that he would perform a super-canine feat to protect him - this was around the time that Etan Patz had been kidnapped and even in our small town, times were changing. He was a good, loyal dog. We shortened the length of the cable tie and widened the fence. There were no more incidents. He lived a long life but every delivery man in town breathed a sign of relief when he was finally put to rest, an aged blind hero beloved by his boy. There is room in the world for a dog that bites - but one has to be prepared for consequences. No matter how many fences we build - real or virtual - there is always the chance the dog will burst out of them given the motivation.

Hmmn...disobedience is a distinct possibility with this one - he's more than a bit strong minded - but I enjoy that in him. I do work with quite a good trainer here in Northeast PA - she's in Florida until April. We've talked about her coming to my place to see what we do at home with a view toward improving at home training sessions and working out some questions I have regarding handling the sheep. I hope it can happen this spring. I'd like to start him on sorting and it would be easier to do that with my flock, I think.

The sad truth is, they could have put a photograph of a dog from any of the popular breeds and there would not be a truly healthy one among them from the Saint Bernard and Newfoundlands to the poor toy breeds with their pushed in faces and unnaturally heavy coats. Winning a Westminster Best in Show is the kiss of death for the breed.

I'm still working on widening Robin's outruns. We have made some progress last fall and are at the point where we are practicing clock work - the dog is to respond to a flanking command without any body signals to push him along. Robin is still very much inclined to slice in as he prefers to come straight on at the sheep, pick them up and steer them someplace, preferably into a corner where he can hold them. Once he has them in a corner, he will take flanking command, lift and fetch. We are working in a square half acre level paddock. I am working up a list of exercises I can do to interrupt this natural inclination to drive and to widen his outrun. This spring we are going to be putting the sheep in a 15 acre pasture where he will find it very difficult to get them up against anything and I fear he will be steering them all over the field, searching in vain for a fence. Other than stopping him at quarter turns on the clock and redirecting him, what can I do? He is four years old next month - our training has been intermittent for various reasons and we didn't really get serious about it until last fall. He is quite eager and does a good lift and fetch, has a good down and recall but he still bowls into the flock rather than widening around them. I've been encouraging him to do laps in the near field (about 7 acres - mostly flat) encouraging him each time to widen his laps and he's doubled his distance over the winter.

Well, this is the first time I'm weighing in -- a kennel that has upwards of 40 puppies a year is irresponsible. I saw an ad in the paper on Sunday for BC pups, ready to go. Probably a few lucky girls will be receiving a cute, cuddly puppy for Valentine's Day and by Easter, they'll be kicking it out the door. Every day I drive by a neglected BC chained out in all kinds of weather - it breaks my heart that by the standards of Animal Control, the dog's basic needs are being met. I can't see how, but that's another thread... Christina, you have stated that you agree the purpose of breeding is to maintain the wonderful characteristics of the working Border Collie. The breeder you mentioned clearly does not breed working dogs. Having that many pups a year without much regard for the substance of what a Border Collie is damages the breed. Sending a link to their website to someone interested in purchasing and then shrugging "Not my decision" is passive endorsement. I have a red BC (neutered)from working lines. No one bred him for color and it was a complete surprise when this beautiful red tri popped out - and yes, he works. He has brought me to so many new places. I've been around Border Collies all my life -working dogs when I was too young to understand their ability and later rescue dogs. These last four years have taught me that I never even scratched the surface of understanding them. To me, wanting a Patrick Shanahan - or any other top dog progeny to start a breeding program is like shopping for a Ferrari before you learn to drive. Yes, you want the best - but can you handle it? Are you interested in trialing? Farming? Do you have land? Do you have sheep or some other kind of livestock? Do you have access to a trainer in your area? Any ideas of how expensive it is to raise and train a quality BC? It's not quite on par with sending a kid to college, but it can run into money. Are you patient? It takes time to learn to work with a dog on livestock. You need to learn how to understand the dog and the stock. I thought I knew both - I hadn't the first clue about a working dog. Here's just one little example: Yesterday I made another mistake. Robin is very solid on his "That will do" command and when I called him out of the pen after setting out grain, he wouldn't come. I literally had to drag him out. I thought wow, has he gotten rusty over the winter! The next time we went in, I realized that he was having a battle of wills with my little Miss Dickens and I had dragged him off the field before he had settled it. This time I listened to him. Once his mastery over her was once again established he came willingly. And he is forgiving. Here's another generalization to chew on: AKC folks speak of "Getting into the breed" or doing things "for the love of the breed." Border Collie folks are motivated by the love of the dog.

Simply amazing!

Thanks for posting these links!

How sad...I shudder to think where many of those puppies will end up.

I would also avoid situations where she is overstimulated - seven dogs barking in the house is rather unnerving!

I would tend to think that it is both - the dog's breeding and (lack of) training. My Robin is a very pushy dog and constantly has to be reminded to slow down, take time and mind his distance. He'll be four years old next month, well past the age when he should know these things, but our slow training schedule has put us behind the curve. He's not chasing; he's just working in high gear because of his intensity. I have learned as that I need to keep in constant contact with him, reminding him to take time. His brother(a littermate) is a much gentler dog, slower and more methodical in his approach. Also, do you think in the video you cited that the sheep moving toward the barn had something to do with their speed? Dog or no dog, mine always kick into high gear when headed to the barn - I suspect because they see a human and are thinking G-R-A-I-N. I also have one sheep that sees the dog anywhere in the pasture and heads for me at full speed, rather disconcerting as she is about 200 pounds.

Good to know - we are planning wood floors for upstairs when the budget allows. It is really quite amazing how their minds work, isn't it?

Thanks all for the great suggestions. He has my eagle eye. I also took him to the farm and let him work off some energy - hopefully he'll be too tired to cause any trouble but I won't count on it!

It is a good thing we are replacing the carpet in the basement with tile instead of new carpet. Robin has peed in various places at least once a day since we started the project! This from a dog completely housebroken. Though he is neutered, it is obviously marking as he knows to ring the bell on the back door if he wants to go out. I've not been able to catch him in the act so I am assuming it is him and not Brodie, but based on Robin's proclivity for marking posts outside, I'm pretty sure it is him. I've never seen Brodie mark anything. How on earth do I get Robin to stop this behavior before I need to buy stock in Nature's Miracle? Liz

Yes - I think a red dog has to find you! :)/> I had never seen a red BC until I met Robin. It has been noted that selecting for a particular trait that isn't directly related to health or performance is very risky to the breed.

Last fall we noticed a similar issue with Robin's eyes - not an X but more of a blurred square right over his pupil. My first panicked thought was either an ulcer (odd in both eyes at the same time) or CA - though his pedigree is clear as far as I could tell. We went to Cornell where the ophthalmologist diagnosed fatty or mineral deposits (they are similar) and said that scraping would do more harm than good at this point. His vision is not adversely affected. He also said that this did not appear to be an inherited trait. We tried some eye ointment, mainly to keep the eye lubricated as there was no infection. The initial "try" period was 3 months - I also cut back on the fat on his diet (no butter on his morning toast!) There was no notable difference so we discontinued the ointment as all it was doing was annoying the dog (though he was very good about it). The Dr.'s fee was $300.00 (we had the bloodwork done at the local vet for an additional $85.00, which saved some $). One odd thing which appeared in the exam is that my dog with the knock you down at 50 paces stare does not appear to blink very much, suggested that the eye not lubricating itself and the deposits are a mechanism to protect the cornea. Don't know what to add except that I took photos of Robin's eyes and continue to compare them with him now to keep an "eye" on things. Good luck with your boy!

Ah, a warm wind is blowing through and took away all of our snow, leaving thoughts of training... Winter will return of course so while I wait out these last few months, what can I do to with the dogs? We are doing small barn chores. The dogs clear the pen for me while I put out grain. The drawback to this is that I want to be sure that the Shetland lambs (now 8 months old) are getting their fair share. I'm also giving them a good run across the near field to keep them fit. (I'm getting a good walk too - it is very true that if your dog is gaining weight, you aren't getting enough exercise!) What else can I do?

Craig is in my boys' pedigree as well - great-grandfather in the male line.

Oh, Mike, there's people here that know so much really valuable stuff...if nothing else,lurk and read. The training forum is very helpful for understanding the Border Collie mind...and its the dogs who are awesome...

Sue R spoke about foundational training. Here's an example. If there is one thing my boys love nearly as much as sheep, it is water. Brodie is a quiet swimmer, but Robin likes to live life large - kersplash, barking all the while - he's a real noisy pain in the neck! I figured if I could call them out of the water - especially Robin at that level of excitement, I could get them out of any situation so from the time I started letting them swim in the frog pond, they got called out, were let to go back, then called out again. When they were called out for the last time, it was reward time - a good rubdown. I can now call them out of the creek from the top of the hill above the creek, well over 400 yards and as much as Robin zones in on the sheep, he comes to me instantly when called off. I'm now working on whistles. It's a process.

The dog knows, Mike. The dog knows. These dogs are smarter than we lowly humans in many ways. Their job is to assess the situation and anticipate actions and they are hardwired for it. They study you every day until they not only know what you're saying but also what you are thinking and also what you are going to think. Put the collar up, unless you want it handy to to use it on your children. You are thinking that he is only making the connection between the thing you don't want him near and the shock, thereby creating an avoidance reaction, but he is also making the connection between you and the shock so there is a real danger of this becoming a default correction, which you don't want as there may be a day when you need him to react instantly to your voice command (this is covered much more thoroughly in other posts). Train him to the voice or whistle. On a daily basis, watch how he follows your body language, even when you think he's not looking. Write down how many words he knows reliably and work on what you would like him to do by adding language. If nothing else, start teaching him tricks. These dogs can learn dictionaries full of body language and words and he will follow you to hell and back if you give him a chance.

Gotta smile at this one. Overreacting to pressure, Robin is intensely interested in having the sheep NOT return to the barn. He happily puts them in the furthest corner of the pasture, and having gotten them under control, lies down nice and easy. It looks all pretty and pastoral until you realize he's not lolling about but focused so hard on them they dare not drop their heads to graze. He is the predator. Left to his own devices he'd keep them stuck there away from shade and water until they - and he - collapsed of sun/heat stroke. It's been the devil's own task this fall to get him to flank around them and bring them back toward the barn - but with patience, we managed it.

(Tried to post earlier and the Internet nose-dived.) Mike, I don't think you're going to get anywhere with the shock collar debate...BCs are notoriously sensitive to mishandling so even if you are being careful, you could imprint something on him that you'll have to pay for later. They can make extended leaps of logic that you might not think possible. For example, a past rescue dog came to us nipping a man's hand if he tried to pet him - because it was the man who put the shock collar on him. It took a while for the dog to realize that he was safe from that sort of thing and he became everyone's best friend. That is, until he got hit by a car because we couldn't train him out of the wheel fixation his previous owner had allowed him to develop. Every time I think about that dog, I can't help but think I failed him. So we'll retire that part of the discussion for now. One more caution - keep him AWAY from the shooting range - he is darting after the targets to catch the bullets. He sees them hit and he wants to fetch them. One day he just might catch one. I witnessed a very close call myself with an unattended dog. It would have been heartbreaking. If nothing else, being around the shooting hurts his ears. He's a beautiful boy. You are fortunate to have him as your companion. At seven months old, Leonard is developing a whole new personality so you will want to be very careful about the things you do with him. He sounds like he loves you very much and is very biddable, which is a good thing. Why not teach him to fetch the chickens into their coop at night and find something else for him to do during the day - get some guineas to put in with the chickens. They'll shriek to the heavens if anything goes missing. Leaving a very young dog to watch something that inherently needs organizing is so tempting. You might discover one day that Leonard has decided to herd your chickens, gotten too excited and you will be missing some chickens. It is rarely a good idea to leave such a young BC alone in such a tempting position. I've been around BCs all my life - as an adult, we had rescues. been raising 2 pups for the past 3 and a half years - the first pups I've had since I was a small child. I learned a great deal on these boards and from trainers and we've gotten on fairly well but I have quite a list of "I won't dos" and "I will dos" if I should ever be so fortunate as to get a chance to have a pup again. It is obvious that you love Leonard and are very proud of him and his abilities. Spend some quiet time with him and listen to what he has to tell you. These are wonderful dogs, wonderful companions and deserve the best that we can give them. That's all people here, in various ways, are trying to explain. Liz