topnotchdog

Thanks, Diana, I suppose so, it will be interesting to see what they figure out. I just went to the UM BCC link and I noticed they are now describing BCC as an "episodic nervous system disorder." I'm posting the link because it also addresses another question from this thread: "How can I tell BCC from heat exhaustion / heat stroke?" http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vbs/faculty/Mickelson/lab/EIC/bordercollieEIC/home.html B.

P.S. FWIW my understanding is that EIC and BCC are likely *not* interchangeable syndromes. The EIC found in Labradors is evidently a musculo-skeletal issue, whereas the hunch anyway with BCC is that it involves something more anxiety-pathway related. Sorry if this butchers it altogether, maybe someone can correct me/clarify this.

Our dog is suspected of having BCC. At first it was a real trick (not to mention a bit scary) having a young, active dog with this apparent syndrome. But he's two now and, knock wood, we're managing it well while also keeping him fit and active. Given that the combination of exertion and mental over-stimulation seem to be the key (as has been mentioned, ambient temperature is not the most important thing, hotter sure doesn't help, though), we have done the following which have made a huge difference. (We have fiddled with a variable here and there as an experiment---we are done fiddling & it seems he's not growing out of it, but would be great if he did!) No idea how relevant this is for a working dog, but perhaps some of it could be adapted: - alternate states of arousal/over stimulation (ie toy play) with focus and something "more cognitive" (ie a trick, obedience or agility behavior) - rank the dog's toys and play only with those that do not get the dog into that state - choose games that are not over-stimulating (fetch may be too much, but "find it" is just right and gets the dog same amount of exercise--really seems to help that he cannot see the toy fly and land) - alternate toy play and food rewards in training, or use just food (act of eating seems to create a calming feedback loop) - teach and intersperse impulse control exercises like stay, leave it into play (i.e. throw toy while dog in stay, release) -stop for breaks before dog is in trouble (breaks include behaviors we've had to put on cue b/c he wouldn't do them otherwise, including panting, drinking, getting in kiddie pool; with our dog it was important to learn the signs that preceded trouble--for eg he would get very sticky with the toy, especially releasing it) - use Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol (Clinical behavioral Medicine for Small Animals) and Leslie McDevitt's On Off Switch Games among others (Control Unleashed) Hope that helps somebody. I feel for the dogs and the owners whose work is affected by this and I hope we'll know more about this apparent syndrome soon. I know of at least one other breed affected (whippets) so hopefully that will help gather information. Barbara

Maja and all, If I understand correctly, the crux of your first point was to give some suggestions about opening a dialog with those who enjoy dog shows. Point well taken. At this stage I am still gathering information about why those who enjoy showing enjoy it, and how they understand its effects. I made made no attempt to convince my one discussion partner of anything, I was mostly asking questions as a way to understand better. I know some people ask a question in order to set someone up to pounce on them, or they are trying to prove a point by asking the question itself. This was a pretty good friend, who knows I ask questions that can be taken at face value, and who I could adopt a tone at times of "help me understand how you make sense of what seems batty to me." But I hear what you are saying, and I take your point as a helpful hint as I move forward. For clarity's sake, my wording was to "go with that standard" (as in, to prioritize it) rather than support lines bred for working who do not show. Agreed, the mere existence of the standard would not jeopardize much, if anything. However, choosing to breed based on a beauty standard instead of working ability certainly does, as I think you agree based on my reading of your posts. Where breeding is concerned, I can't imagine who would hold being beautiful---in a show dog way---against a dog, as long as/particularly if that dog was a proven stockdog. My understanding is that dog shows themselves, however, elevate in overt and subtle ways a beauty standard that should be taken into account for a breeding decision. What I wonder is if they would think the shows were much fun anymore if their dogs were mostly deemed to be not pretty enough. So would they not then be motivated to include beauty in their breeding decisions? I think just making it secondary does not help (right, like I think Sue R was saying?) as presumably the pool of good working dogs who are also beautiful in a show dog way is much smaller than the pool of good working dogs in general. Choosing which dog to keep based on appearance once the litter is on the ground seems as good as picking the last one left (or some other relatively arbitrary selection criterion). I don't know what harm could be in that. It's not a breeding decision any more, right? There was a reference to things being different in Poland, it may be that I am missing something important for this exchange. Please explain or point me in the right direction, I'd be grateful. I know pretty much squat about kennel clubs, here or abroad. I think doomed is too strong a word from my POV (but give me a little time ). More to the point perhaps than "they don't care" might even be the opposite. It might be that they do care that the beagle (allegedly) hunts, and presumes he does, because he's a beagle, and the history and romanticism of that captivates them. It might just be that excellent marketing (think of the voice over on a televised dog show) perpetuates the idea that the hunt is still in the dog, along with the qualities of a nice family pet. And how cool to have a snoopy whose ancestors hunted (or maybe even parents, depending on the KC titles he has, don't know if they have that for beagles). And this can purportedly help someone enjoy and understand and admire their dog even more. I am not trying to be a smarty pants, but which border collies or people you are talking about when you say "people like border collies?" At least in my area, there are not a lot of average pet owners seeking a show type border collie as a pet, but that may not be what you mean. B. (mea culpa, edited for less punchiness and hopefully more clarity)

Why do you think that changed, the priority to get a certain look over the work in the dog world in general? The Dog Wars touches on this, but I am curious about what changed in people's minds, or was it really good marketing, or class consciousness or urbanization happened, or more nefarious things like eugenics, to contribute to this shift. (Feel free to send me to the library, someone must have unpacked the history of this!) Apparently some breed clubs profess to aim to 'keep the work in the breed' as part of their mission. I asked my friend if this is the priority, then why go with an arbitrary appearance standard that directly jeopardizes that aim, why not not then support the non-akc registered working lines of her favorite breed? She said "they are not as pretty." (She won't watch the BBC documentary, she is afraid it would be too upsetting. Sorry I keep alluding to that conversation, it's the only one I've got to go on at the moment.) B.

Thanks for this discussion, everyone. (Emphasis added.) This gets to another thing that concerned me after talking with my breed enthusiast friend the other day. As we spoke, even the original work her breed did was being lumped consistently by her under the concept of "performance" along with a list of sports activities. I am beginning to wonder if the concept of performing a particular task has been co-opted into a notion of "my dog is built right so look at all the cool things he can perform at." But of course those dogs would not be able to perform the original work for which they were intended. I was troubled by that, because it means that the AKC performance events could be seen as providing evidence for people that 'breeding for structure can improve working ability.' So it becomes very circular and insular and people who love their dogs and their breed might genuinely believe (be duped into thinking by an organization that seems to have authority?) that they are doing right by their dogs and the breed they love. (And I don't mean to offend anyone here or who is lurking, this is just how I can imagine the thinking might unfold. I do plan to attend an AKC border collie performance event soon and talk with people there to learn more.) And then I found the Barbie Collie thread under the Archived threads section here. It addresses in particular the points Sue R and jdarling are making. A very eye-opening read. I am still processing the notion that someone who would consider themselves knowledgeable enough to breed a dog, or support the breeding of certain dogs, would also believe that herding instinct cannot be lost through certain breeding choices. By the same way they can alter ear carriage, would it not stand to reason they can alter other things about the dog (intentionally or unintentionally) through breeding choices? Maybe I am not understanding what you mean. D'Elle, your post renews my (normally otherwise very optimistic) spirit. As did the story about Tea's grandfather at the dog show (can't remember what thread that's in, sorry!). B.

Thanks, Sue. That last one is especially mind-boggling to me. I talked with someone yesterday, not a breeder but a (non border collie) breed enthusiast. She thought that breeding for structure made it more likely the dog would work well. What I got from her was that it is important for some people to first and foremost have a dog they feel is pretty, that they do not believe (never mind the evidence) that there is a strong link between selecting for pretty and health problems or loss of working ability, that things are improving and it was really line breeding a while back that caused some problems. I got from her comments that the breed standard packs a lot of authority. Even to the point that spayed and neutered dogs can be evaluated by a judge to say how closely they meet the standard, and she would consider it a point of pride to get this certification. When I asked her why it would make her feel proud of her dogs to have a total stranger declare their opinion that her dogs are pretty based on an arbitrary standard, she wasn't so sure. I hope she'll read Dog Wars so we can discuss it. She seemed to squirm at that suggestion, as though reading a book might be a scary thing to do. Which, I guess it might, if it allowed you to see things that were inconvenient or unpleasant. This is more complicated than I thought and clearly not only about dogs. BTW did no other breeds besides Jack Russell terriers go through a similar struggle? Yes, you're right, my mistake---both Ray and Lorna are the authors. The reason I thought of that book is, as I recall, they make a case for breeding dogs, including companion dogs, based on what the dog does, not what the dog looks like. B.

Now y'all are just trying to make me cry. I thought about that BBC documentary while I was reading the book, I had no idea there had been a much earlier investigation questioning the deleterious effects on health in breeding for specific traits (I think made the cover of Time, can't recall now). That was one of those things I'd almost wish I hadn't learned. I cannot get my head around that. And jdarling, I had the exact same thought when I finally started to grasp a little about hip dysplasia, OFA, diagnostics v.s. real life lameness----with different breeds lumped under 'border collie' seemed it is potentially just comparing apples to oranges. B.

The book Dog Wars has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. Julie P. kindly lent me her copy and I just finished it. I decided to post these thoughts in case someone here has not read it. For those who haven’t yet read it, if you're curious and don’t want to buy it, you can get it at the library. Or, next time you’re at the library, at least find a chair and IMHO read chapters 8 & 9, along with the two short appendices. (‘Course, if you skip parts you’ll miss some funny, and heartwarming, insights you might really enjoy if you are an observer of dogs or people. Not to mention the history of what happened.) If your library doesn’t have it you can get it through your library’s Inter Library Loan service. If you are into border collies, it's pretty much a must-read. Before I read it I was of the opinion that there were two, really three, different types of border collies. IOW I was hardly unbiased going in. Nevertheless, I learned a lot (some of which I almost wish I didn’t now know). And after reading it I think I better understand working border collie people on this & other issues. I also saw myself in some passages, uncanny in their accuracy, that poked lighthearted fun at the wannabe newbie. Those made me smile. After reading it I don’t have a better understanding of conformation border collie people, though. I was hoping to glean an answer to the question I posed to the show breeder a few posts back: Why do you show your dogs in conformation? I assume that show border collie breeders love their dogs. I want to know from a conformation enthusiast what purpose (besides enjoyment) it serves, specifically how it helps the individual dog, and the type of dog, to show in conformation. Maybe that would be considered too utilitarian a standpoint. (I recall the conformation breeder in the book who likened their hobby to creating a work of art.) If they said the purpose was enjoyment, fair enough, but then I’d be inclined to ask them if they think there might be possible harm that could come from showing in conformation, to the individual dog, and to the type of dog. Maybe what I’m not getting is that it is rarely possible for the two sides to get each other (and if they did, they wouldn’t be on their original side anymore.). I wonder if there is some other way. I guess I’ll be at the next conformation show, trying to talk to people who would be willing to help me understand their motivation. The book is very thought-provoking and has me reading the threads in the FAQ section here. I now wonder what a working border collie person might think of Ray Coppinger’s Dogs and his thoughts on behavioral conformation, whether the local foods movement will revive sheep raising, to what extent the predictions at the end of the book are coming true. It is all very fascinating stuff. B.

Hi Mandy, This might seem like a dumb question, but I think your answer will help me understand your point of view: Why do you show your dogs in conformation? This sounds good on its face (though I'd switch the order of these two ^ variables). I would be very interested to find out more about this notion from those who breed working border collies. (If there is a related thread I'd be grateful for a link.) I imagine a lot goes into the decision to breed, like balancing working ability and wishing to avoid (within reason) perpetuating heritable diseases (I've been following the deafness thread with interest). How common is it to wait until the two dogs being bred have trialed successfully in Open to breed them? Or is "Open work" more loosely understood than this, to mean working well on a farm or ranch using skills seen in Open? Thanks, Barbara

Exactly what I have taken away from this discussion as well. Now I have loads more to ponder, observe and do... Barbara

Thank you, Debbie. Very interesting example and good food for thought. (As an aside, my instructor made a point to alert me to this phenomenon even before I got my pup. ) Barbara

I imagine that could be the case, and why I said manners likely set "the tone for the stock work in some ways." I will learn more about this as I go, but I cannot imagine it's helpful to have a dog dragging his handler toward the sheep or not coming when called in situations outside of stock work, and then be as good a partner as he could be with the stock. Don't really have enough experience to assess that, just my impression. It certainly holds true for other dog endeavors wit which I'm more familiar. That may well be. Not sure if you're referring to something I said or not. But FWIW, personally I can't imagine using the phrase "just manners." Since 99% of my dog's job in life is to fit into my life, manners is at the top of my list for things to teach. And I prefer to teach those as I already described. (If you weren't referring to my post, I guess disregard all that!) Barbara

Until I started learning about using a dog to work stock, I would have been aghast at the notion of rapping a dog across the nose with a stick. But as Julie's post shows, the purpose for the dog, the need to prevent stress and injury for all involved, and the *thought and care* (not to mention experience) which can go into (relatively mild) physical punishment, have shown me how appropriate and even necessary such a response can be in the context of working stock. (I remember one lesson last spring I watched, and was *amazed* to see the dog truly relaxed, using her mind again, eager to work, and safer for the sheep after such a correction. The dog reveals all, is my motto.) From what I have seen, a truly skilled stock person uses a lot of well-timed rewards and fewer (but also very well-timed) punishments to guide the dog in his work, and is always reading both the dog and the sheep to see how they are doing and what they need. It is very different from any other training I have done or watched. As for work off stock, leash manners, agility, tricks, and coming when called (which I imagine sets the tone for the stock work in some ways), I am much more inclined to train like Kristine, teaching what I want through reward-based methods (positive reinforcement and some negative punishment) and only gradually adding the challenge of distractions as the dog's understanding grows. Ask me again in a year, lol! Barbara

Thanks for posting this link, Pam. Very interesting to see the difference in approaches of the groups. (I wonder what percentage of US APDT members would use any of the items on that list, I am curious.) Well, yeah, reality tv at its finest! I was suggesting that if those who favor reward-based methods could get the equivalent of his marketing team and his entertainment appeal, we might not even be talking about him right now. Have you seen Barking Mad? Saw it a long time ago, but haven't been able to find it since (I live in the US). Also a very entertaining show and techniques I would actually use and recommend. (One of my favorite episode was one in which the family was struggling with a turtle who bit visitors.) On another note, I wonder how the internet and social networking will influence main stream dog training in the near future, too. Barbara