Eileen Stein

Hi Maja, I'm not Mark but I'll jump in here. Many thanks for the offer.

The Principal Investigator in the research we are sponsoring (Dr.Hannes Lohi of the University of Helsinki, working in collaboration with Dr. James Mickelson at the University of Minnesota) is actually overseas also, so I don't think this would be a stumbling block. The samples we collect go through UMinn, where the DNA is extracted, but we will try to find out whether that is necessary, or whether you could submit directly to Dr. Lohi's laboratory.

I should probably mention in general that these researchers are members of an international consortium which makes possible confidential sharing of data from samples among its participants. So this research is able to draw on thousands of samples collected from border collies in different countries, in addition to the ones we in North America are able to provide.

In Mark's post he detailed the steps that are necessary to find the mutation(s), develop a test for it/them, and validate that test. It may sound discouraging that so many steps must be gone through, but I want to make sure no one misinterprets this to mean that we won't end up with a test like the one for CEA. Indeed, that is the goal, and at the end of the process we have every reason to hope and expect that we will have a test just like that. How long it will take to get there, it is impossible to predict.

 

Journey, as I recall it has been a month or two since we asked if any of the interim report could be publicly released. Frankly, I expected that they would not want to have it released to the public. It is research in progress. Nor do I think it would be very helpful to anyone but a molecular geneticist. It is predominately things like "We were able to define the critical region to a XXXXXXX region based on XXX. . . . In addition, when [doing XXXX], the region was further narrowed down to XXXXXXXX. . . . The XXXXX gene speculated in the previous study is excluded by our study." I think it's safe to pass on that they did find support for the mode of inheritance being recessive.

Liz, you keep posting stuff like this in various places -- including last year in page 1 of this very thread (see post #10 and post #17) -- making it sound as if the HEF is not responsive to dog owners wishing to submit samples, and that we are causing people to be "frustrated and lose faith in the study." I have called you on it privately a couple of times, but at this point I want to say publicly that I don't know what you're talking about.

 

During calendar 2017 alone, through intensive effort, we collected samples from, and administered free BAER tests to, over 300 dogs. We have initiated contact with other dogs who are of interest for the particular phase the study is in, as well as taking samples from people who have contacted us directly. You yourself have provided a sample (see posts #10 and #17), so you certainly know how to contact us. I don't know why you tried to make it sound as if you had had no contact from us regarding giving that sample. Sadly, at this point it is difficult for me to escape the conclusion that you yourself are trying to cause people to be frustrated and lose faith in the study.

Hi all,

 

Everyone who wrote to enter their dogs for BAER testing at the Belle Grove finals should have received a response from me. If you emailed me and have not received a response, please get in touch again -- eileen@bordercollie.org.

 

A very limited number of dogs can still be included, but time is running out . . . .

 

--Eileen

Very interesting article. And great, GREAT commentary by Maja!

 

To me, the deepest magic in working dogs is when/if you reach the point where your dog intuits your ultimate goal from a pedestrian command that does not come close to embodying it. IMO, that goes beyond communication to communion.

Again this year the ABCA Health & Education Foundation (HEF) will be sponsoring a health clinic at the USBCHA sheepdog finals. BAER testing will be offered, as well as DNA sample collection. The clinic will take place over 3 days -- Wednesday, Thursday and Friday (Sept 27-29). Colette Williams will be administering the hearing tests, as she did last year. Participating dogs must be registered with the ABCA, but they do not have to be entered in the finals to take part. There is no charge for participating.

This is a great opportunity to find out your dog's hearing status at no cost to you, as well as to contribute data to the study aimed at finding the genetic mutation that causes Early Adult Onset Deafness. All dogs are welcome as time permits; dogs with EAOD in their pedigrees and offspring are especially welcome; and dogs who are over the age of 8 with no apparent hearing loss and with offspring who have no hearing loss are also especially welcome this time around.

If you would like to enter dogs in the clinic, please email me at eileen@bordercollie.org, including the names of the dogs you would like to bring. You will be asked to fill out a short questionnaire, and to provide a copy of each dog's registration certificate. All information provided and test results will be kept strictly confidential.

Hope to see you at Belle Grove!

--Eileen

I just wanted to comment that the OP's question is not one that can be dismissed out of hand. It is certainly theoretically possible for smooth-coated prick-eared border collies to have higher energy and drive than rough-coated ones with a softer ear set. Remember "Belyaev's foxes," the silver foxes that Belyaev and Trut bred for tameness? Over the generations, as the foxes became tamer and more people-centered by temperament, these behavioral changes brought with them changes in appearance, most notably in their coloring and markings, as well as in other behavioral characteristics (prolonged puppyhood, more frequent heat cycles). (There is a new book out, written by Trut, which deals with this project, called How to Tame a Fox (and Build a Dog) -- I haven't read it yet, but I'm eager to.)

 

Gene linkage is one possible explanation for this -- if a behavior you're breeding for happens to be caused by a gene that is in close proximity on the chromosome to a gene that affects appearance, the two would more likely be passed to offspring together. Changes in the production and timing of hormones by genes could be another explanation.

 

So it could be the case that smooth coats and prick eared dogs could be higher in energy. But are they? You'd have to observe a lot more dogs than most people are able to do to answer that question. For example, my current pup is from a litter of eight, where four were smooth-coated and four were rough-coated. So far (they are 10 months old), there does not seem to be any correlation between coat and energy level in the pups, but that is a very small sample.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that it is possible that smooth-coated prick-eared border collies have more energy and drive than those without these characteristics, but evidence that they actually do is lacking.

I was just starting to answer this when Riika's good post popped up. I find the search function on this software kinda disappointing, so I can well believe you get better results using Google search. Finding threads like this by using the Boards search tools is greatly helped if you can remember one or more unusual word(s) that occurred in the thread, e.g., "Jester," " Wisecarver," and use those as your key words. If you can do that, you will get a manageable number of hits, as opposed to something like "puppy" or "breeder," which are no help at all. I should think the same is true using Google search.

A lot of what you outline here is pretty normal behavior for a puppy.

 

Submissive urination or urination from excitement is a puppy thing. Not all pups do it, but it's not unusual. It is something you just have to manage as best you can until the pup grows out of it. Try to have him greet your husband or meet new people outdoors, or on a tile floor. Ditto with correcting him -- avoid giving corrections strong enough to cause him to pee when he's on a rug or on furniture, and definitely don't correct him for submissive peeing -- it will only make him try to show more submission. You do say that the pup will pee if you don't throw the ball a lot with him or if you take toys away, but is that really the case? That would be much more unusual, and pretty odd.

 

When your son plays and dances next to your pup, and the pup "bites him without warning," it could well be that he is soliciting play or responding to what he interprets as a play solicitation. Young pups typically bite one another when they run and play. If you find it hard to tell whether the biting is out of aggression or out of playfulness, it might be good to have an experienced trainer observe, as waffles suggests, so that you can be sure which it is, and act accordingly.

 

I agree that you do not need to spend this much time throwing a ball for your pup. It only accustoms him to that level of exercise, which is more than you want. I agree that loose-leash walks, teaching tricks, and teaching impulse control would be better. There is also nothing wrong with crating a pup of this age 15 or 16 hours a day, properly spaced, IMO. As a start toward impulse control training, teach him to sit calmly before letting him out of his crate, and progress to teaching him to sit and stay before letting him out of his crate. You have the upper hand in that situation -- he cannot get the better of you, so you can be calm and effective. If you think he'll dart past you before you tell him it's okay to come out, and you might not be quick enough to shut the crate door, close the door to the room the crate is in before this exercise so he can't escape.

 

There are a few things in your account that give me pause, for example:

"he will find things to chew on, knowing we don't like it"

"I don't mind spending the time with him. I just hate being bullied into it."

"he loves to dart in front of me and stop so I trip over him"

 

Please try not to attribute bad motives to your pup, even in your mind. I know it may be hard to do, but it's important to change that mindset. The pup finds things to chew on because pups like to chew in general, and are driven to chew when teething. He isn't bullying you, he's asking you to spend time with him; if you give in to that when it's more than you think is right, that's on you, not on him. He's not trying to trip you up, he's just drawn to want your company and be near you and interact with you. You need to discourage the behavior you don't like and encourage the behavior you do, and that takes time and patience and creativity. Of course you're very, very exasperated and frustrated with him, but it's an impediment to your training to let that come through to him, and please believe me, it comes through to him loud and clear. "What can I do, she doesn't like me!" That message is devastating to a border collie pup, and it cannot fail to get in the way of the messages you are trying to get across to him. You and he need to be a team in this effort to teach him what's wrong and what's right.

 

I wish you the best with him, and that you will think it was all worth it as time goes by.

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

Sorry for the mix-up. I have added the account you created earlier, and after I've posted this response I will delete your mestwc account.

 

Welcome to the Boards.

Instead of bashing registries, why not put the same effort into making your County Commissioner aware of the pitfalls of restrictive laws?

 

--johnny

I find I can spread my efforts on behalf of border collies wider than a single issue. For example, I can oppose misguided legislation, support health research, and still try to make people aware of the pitfalls of various registries.

Both types' fanciers need however to face the common enemy. If we do not unite against the animal rights movement we will fall, separately or together.

 

I agree that we need to face common enemies and oppose common enemies. I don't agree that we need to "unite" against common enemies. If the AKC had known about this county initiative, no doubt they would have weighed in with their views. Likewise, if the ABCA had known about this county initiative, no doubt they would have weighed in with their views. I don't see any reason why the two organizations should unite to present their views. Seems to me that would probably be less effective rather than more.

Way cheaper. If I recall correctly, I only needed one roll of field fencing for my 60' diameter ring.

One more thought - I had a dog with IGS or the inability to absorb Vitamin B12 (cobalamine malabsorption). He had periodic runny poops from a very young age. At that time, this genetic issue was not widely recognized and the blood test that finally let us know what his problem was, did not give us that information until it was too late for him. So, if you've ruled out other things (parasites and protozoans, incompatibility with certain foodstuffs, etc.) and still have a problem (especially if your pup's appetite is also very on/off), you might consider testing for this. I'm not meaning to be an alarmist but if someone had only told me about IGS, it would have been an easy and inexpensive save for a good young dog that I miss every day. Your pup is still very young and this should simply be on your radar if the problems you are seeing do not appear to have a cause and persist.

 

 

I agree that this is something that should be kept in mind if the problem doesn't resolve. It can be diagnosed with a DNA test, and if your pup should happen to have it, she can lead a fine and normal life with periodic cobalamin injections -- you can easily learn to give them yourself.

 

However, I also agree with Sue that it's probably the least likely of the options that have been mentioned here, so you can wait awhile before pursuing it, especially if the pup is eating eagerly.

Maybe I am 'overbuilding', but I have seen some dog/sheep interactions in the round pen where the sheep or dog quite forcefully met the fencing. It would have to stand up to that. [Hopefully that scenario wouldn't happen too often,]

 

Actually, there's something to be said for 'underbuilding' a round pen. As you say, sheep can meet the fence forcefully when a young dog is just starting out. I built a pen with wood posts and cattle panels that looks very spiffy, but at a clinic held here a number of years ago one of the entered dogs ran a sheep into the fence, which broke its neck. I have another round pen, made of t-posts with woven wire field fence clipped to them (regular tube gate and wooden posts for the gate). It looks saggy and baggy by comparison, but the fencing has enough "give" to it that the same sheep would probably not have been injured at all. That's the pen I use now for beginner dogs.

This forum is for questions about training dogs to work livestock, so I am moving this topic to the General Border Collie Discussion forum, where you are likely to get more responses.

Since this forum is for training border collies to work livestock, I am moving this topic to the General Border Collie Discussion forum.

If the dog is a poor eater generally, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is only a motion sickness issue. She may have gastro-intestinal issues that were intensified when she was in the car. It's good that you have a vet appointment tomorrow where you can raise this.

Very well observed and well expressed, Brian. I'm thinking I'll move this thread to Under the Handlers' Tent, where more people may see it.

Liz, I understood that your sample was from Freya, who is now deceased? If you haven't already followed the procedure Mark suggested (or even if you have), you can mail your sample (it's a swab, right?) to me. The last time we discussed this was in August, and I suggested that you wait until somewhat cooler weather, not wanting to run the increased risk of bacterial growth in that heat. The researchers want 3 swabs per dog, so please send 3 if you have them. Please include a copy of Freya's pedigree and a completed questionnaire/consent form (see attached). Please send in a padded (not plastic) envelope. I will record your sample in the database and forward to UMN. The same goes if the bitch you're asking about is not Freya, but one who is alive now.

Jeanne Weaver is an excellent trainer and I'm pretty sure she still gives lessons. PM me if you'd like her contact info. She is in Williamston, MI, probably a little less than 1 1/2 hours from Windsor.

 

Heidi is very cute.

If donating by check, please make out the check to ABCA HEF and mail to:

 

ABCA HEF

Cy Peterson, Treasurer
4956 Sugar Pike Road
Canton, GA 30115

 

And thank you so much!

 

 

Where do I send my check? And thanks for the hours, experience, and thought that you put into efforts to preserve and improve the health and well-being of border collies.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

As old-timers on the Boards know, this website has been brought to you since January 1999 by the United States Border Collie Club (USBCC). Last year, the ABCA (American Border Collie Association) registry formed a 501( c )(3) tax exempt foundation to support genetic research and education about the border collie. Logically enough, it's called the ABCA Health & Education Foundation, Inc. And since that is quite a mouthful, it's more informally referred to as HEF.

Many of the people supporting the HEF (including me) were also involved in the USBCC. Because the missions of the two organizations are so similar, the board of directors of the USBCC recently voted to dissolve their corporation and to donate their assets to the HEF, to avoid duplication of effort. You may notice that, as a symbol of the continuity in mission of the two organizations, the HEF has adopted the dog from the USBCC's logo for its own logo.

The USBCC, founded in 1975, now passes out of existence. But these Boards and the All About Border Collies website will not disappear -- they will continue to be maintained privately by Heather Nadelman and me.

 

 

Now, a little more about the HEF. You can learn more about it by going to its website -- still very much a work in progress -- at bordercolliefoundation.org. HEF is actively pursuing two projects at this time -- a study to find the causal mutation(s) and develop a DNA test for Early Adult Onset Deafness (EAOD), and the collection of DNA samples to be stored, together with health and pedigree information, in a DNA bank, which we hope will be an important resource for future research into genetic issues in our dogs. I will be posting more about these efforts in separate posts.

 

Over the years, people have occasionally asked me if they could contribute to the maintenance costs of the BC Boards. I have always said no, and I still do. But if you feel you've benefited from being a member of the Boards and would like to find a way to express that, please allow me to suggest that you consider a donation to the HEF. Genetic research is expensive, and so are some of the educational initiatives the HEF hopes to develop. The ABCA has launched the Foundation with a significant contribution to get it started, but it will need to become self-sufficient if it is to achieve its goals. Small donations will mean a lot as we begin to grow. They will show larger potential donors -- and even more important, the IRS -- that we have widespread support from the border collie community. So no pressure, but if you could consider a small donation, it would be much appreciated. Ways to donate can be found here.

 

Thanks.

 

--Eileen

I'm sorry I'm not at liberty to answer your questions right now, Karen. Make of it what you will.

True. However, look at how bad things can be and are with no knowledge.

 

Things are terrible now with no knowledge. I couldn't agree more. ABCA has been pushing in every way it's known how to drive this research forward. But if there isn't a definitive test yet, wishing it and needing it will not make it so.

 

 

Reading between the lines here....are you implying that PD has no credibility and the test is useless? Nothing is perfect and I don't recall them saying so yet, only that they need more DNA/funds to further the research. I'd rather some information than none. And if we do pool together to help it would help the breed as a whole. Unless PD is a fraud?

 

No, no, no! I am not implying that PD has no credibility and the test is useless! I'm saying just what the statement said: The test may or may not live up to the claims made for it. But the claims are big, and we have been unable to obtain enough information to have confidence that they're justified. Since ABCA is known to have been very supportive of Mark and Alison's research in the past, we felt we owed it to our members to give our take on it when we were asked.

 

I hope the test proves to be what we all have been hoping for, but speaking personally now, I wish it were not being sold as is. I wish samples were simply being collected for further research aimed at validating and improving it. I worry that if one or more results given to customers turns out to be wrong, then that will have the effect of discrediting research and testing in the eyes of many breeders, a lot of whom already have their doubts about whether tests are a good thing or not.