After I mentioned in a recent thread that a beardie (Turnbull's Blue) had been registered on merit by the ISDS in 1984, one of our members wrote me privately asking if I had any pictures of ISDS-registered beardies I could post. I didn't then, but I've since gotten some, and here they are.

All of these pix except the last one are of descendents of Turnbull's Blue who are registered with both the ISDS and the ABCA. They are all owned by Barbara Starkey of Galena, MD. As far as I know, they have no other beardie blood except for Blue. When I took the photos, Barbara told me that all of the dogs are very much out of coat for one reason or another, and that I should come back in a few months to get a better impression of how profuse their coats are.



The above bitch, called Ceri, is a great-great-granddaughter of Blue, and therefore 1/16 beardie. As you can see by comparing all these pictures, there is no direct correlation between how closely the dog is related to Blue and how much the dog looks like a beardie.



The above bitch, Nell, is a great-granddaughter of Blue, and therefore is 1/8 beardie.



The above dog, Grae, is a great-grandson of Blue, and therefore is 1/8 beardie. He competes in USBCHA Ranch class.





The above two photos show Ben, a dog who is a grandson of Blue, and therefore 1/4 beardie. He is retired from trialing now, but ran in Open class in the UK before he was imported to the US, and in the US afterwards. Note his prick ears, which obviously came from his border collie heritage.



By way of comparison, the above dog is a purebred working beardie who is registered with the Working Bearded Collie Society in Wales, and is not registered with the ISDS or the ABCA.

For some pictures of show Beardies, go to http://geocities.com/okbeardie/ .

I honestly don't see much difference between the part beardies and the registered working beardie, except perhaps that the working beardie is a bit hairier on the face (around the eyes and top of head). I'm not the least bit surprised that the show beardies bear little resemblance to the working dogs.

J.

I kind of think of "beard" or "wire" as just another coat variety of working collies. Fly has a great-grandma whose coat type is listed on her pedigree as "beard." I don't know if the bitch's ancestors were also bearded as their coat types are not listed. If anyone is curious I can email you a pdf of Fly's pedigree. Fly is of mostly Welsh breeding.

Melanie - Thanks for those interesting pictures.

I guess I was thinking, as I looked at them, that you could "shave" those dogs or digitally replace their wiry coats with a "Border Collie coat", and I wouldn't be able to tell them from a working Border Collie.

Your comment about an ISDS/ABCA registered dog labelled as having a "wiry coat" seems to me to sum up how the Bearded Collies look - like a Border Collie with a wiry coat.

The dogs shown--are they actually border collies, just of another coat-type? Are there differences in working styles?

Is the purebred working beardie more of an upright worker with less eye?

Thanks.

Vicki

As far as I know (and I could easily be wrong), bearded originally referred to a dog with hair on its face (as seen in the pics above). Therefore, working dogs (that is, border collies or their working ancestors) with hairy faces were bearded, but still would have been considered working border collies or working sheepdogs or whatever they were called at the time and so would have the same range of working styles as the group of working sheepdogs as a whole--from lots of eye and lots of style all the way through to completely upright and loose eyed. I am not using the term border collie above simply because I don't have a timeline for what was called what when....

The bearded collie as it is known to the conformation breeders is considered an upright, loose-eyed worker, but I suppose it's a "chicken-egg" thing as to which came first (looks or upright style). And I have no idea what the foundation stock of the current KC breed is. I do know that any time I have searched for sites with actual working beardies, they all seem to look like the ones in the pics above and not like the KC version (but I doubt anyone is surprised by that). And perhaps if the dogs above were groomed to the nth degree and their coats were allowed to grow out (assuming that possible), they would look more like the KC version. I just don't know.

Just my thoughts, without any actual reference material to back me up.

J.

Right. I agree. That's my understanding as well.

And I know that KC beardies are upright, loose-eyed, & bark when "working" and I'm not even considering those in the equation.

The ISDS beardies really look like neat dogs. Is there something in registration regulations--don't even know it that is phrased correctly---that differentiates between the occasional bc pup born bearded and ISDS working bearded collies? I'll assume there is.

And if working bearded collies are a separate breed, then they are upright loose-eyed, more vocal in their work? And would they then be favored for a different type of work?

The occasional bearded bc would obviously still work like a bc and be registered as a border collie, only bearded.

Lots of questions. Sorry.

Vicki

Eileen,

Thanks for posting these. I think Melanie's description of working Beardies as "werewolf Border Collies" is pretty accurate.

Cheers, MR

Check out this beardie picture for sale on E-bay. Seems to fall between the pictures here and the KC version lookswise.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3690172486&rd=1

The auction ends soon, but I hope the image remains accessible for a bit.

J.

I just got an email from the guy I ordered Fly's pedigree from. I'd asked him about the one Beardie bitch in Fly's pedigree and whether or not any of her ancestors were also bearded. He said that none of them are.

In the last 15 years, 50 dogs have been registered with ISDS as bearded, 17 of them from the same bitch (not the one in Fly's pedigree).

For more info I encourage anyone to contact Teun v/d Dool, whose ISDS Border Collie Database is here:

http://home.tiscali.nl/~palado/bcdb/index.htm

The amount and quality of work he's put into this can't be explained in a simple fashion -- you have to go look at it. He provides a 5 Euro pedigree service that returns a six-generation pedigree with all sorts of extra information like regional ancestry (Fly is 53% Welsh), coefficient of inbreeding (Fly's is 7.329), ancestor achievements and returns it in pdf format within 24 hours. An example is on the website and I can email Fly's pedigree to anyone who wants to take a look at it.

Not invested, just impressed.

I just wanted to second what Melanie was saying about those pedigrees, they're wonderful. Teun is very helpful and will try to do them however is possible. For example, my Gael was bred here from 2 ISDS dogs and Teun did her pedigree from those since she wouldn't have an ISDS number herself.

The pedigrees are really informative.

Oooo, can I see Robin?
It would be fun to find out how closely related Lance's mamma Nell and Gael's mother are and in exactly what way.
A.

Is Lance by any chance named after Mr. Armstrong?

Oh yeah. I have the major hot wannas for Mr. Armstrong after full immersion in the Tour de France just past. Probably the most thrilling sporting event I have ever watched.
Damn that Sheryl Crow!
A.

Outta the way, lady! I saw him first!

I actually went and visited my mother in VA last month specifically so I could watch OLN. She has cable, I don't.

I have managed to just barely miss the Tour many, many times while in France. Everywhere I go, they were either just there or are going to be there a day after I leave. I have seen barricades set up in northern France, in the Dordogne, and in Paris. In 2002 I left Paris the day before the finale on the Champs Elysees. A couple of years ago in Heidelberg I spent almost the entire time in the hotel glued to Eurosport (it doesn't take long to see everything there is to see in Heidelberg and I was burnt out from traveling at that point).

My crush on Lance Armstrong has been nurtured for a while now. My friends find his appearance to be too ascetic, but I don't care, the guy is a total stud.

I'll settle for another tour cyclist, however. One thing I have noticed is that being reasonably attractive appears to be a job requirement for tour cyclists (as long as you don't mind noodle arms and jersey tans).

Anyway.

Hey A. -

I put the file here:

http://www.sheepdogsonline.com/gaelped.pdf

I can't remember Nell's pedigree but i'm going to look through my stack and see if i have it here. Will let you know how close they are.

Ok, it's a little convoluted but here goes -- Nell and June (Gael's dam) are the ones related by line. Pip and Tara are Nell's grandparents and are June's great prandparents (one on top side and one on bottom, not mated to each other). Beau is one of Nell's other grandparents and he was a littermate to Piaf, who was June's grandfather. So, 3 out of 4 of the "lines" of their pedigrees (Nell and Gael's mother June that is) are pretty close. Of course to get Gael you have to throw in the Bomber as her sire.

OK girls, so what is your opinion on guys who have cleaner shaven legs than you? It kind of bothered Renee, but I think she liked how the cycling clothes fit.

OLN coverage was better than years past, but still not as good as it could be. I liked reading cyclingnews.com and velonews.com live coverage then going to watch the stage on OLN then reading the riders diaries after the stage. Then you really get a good feel for what's going on in the peloton. The studs of this year's TdF were George H. and Floyd L.; it's too bad Floyd didn't have enough left after he shattered the field in the last mtn stage to win the stage.

Sorry for the departure from BC topics; you just hit on my other passion; I wish I still had the time to train and race.

Mark

P.S. Melanie, if you want cyclists with more developed arms look at track racers (they're the sprinters in the cycling world).

Colby Pearce and Marty Nothstein
Mike Beers

Ha!

The only kind of leg hair that bothers me is too much. I don't have any problem with men shaving their legs. I've always sort of felt that men should shave their pits.

Eurosport coverage is so much better than OLN. Do you get that on satellite? They show everything -- if the stage takes seven hours to ride, they show seven hours. The thing I thought was funniest the last time I got to watch Eurosport was that they kept track specifically of where Lance was at all times. They had a graphic that identified the leaders, the peloton, and if he wasn't in the peloton, the "groupe Armstrong."

The biggest disappointment for me this year is that the Kaiser just didn't really show up for the dance. I like Jan Ullrich, think he's a real champion and while I didn't want him to beat Lance would have liked to see a real race between them. The fact that he finished off the podium made me very sad. (And did I mention he's totally hot?)

I was reading cyclingnews.com and Daily Peloton for my updates. The Washington Post ran a few good features by Sally Jenkins, too. For Andrea, Daily Peloton has a "Le Tour Delicieux" column in which "Crazy Jane" waxes poetic about bronzed, shaven legs.

P.S. -- I don't mind noodle arms. How can I be picky about noodle arms? I have noodle arms.

boy did this thread get two-wheeled off the path.the farmer down the road from us has 2 beardies and every summer he shaves them.and they could easily pass for short coated bcs.these two are amazing to watch work their cattle.

borderbob,
So essentially what your saying, then, is that for these two beardies, working the cattle is like riding a bike? LOL

Or as easy as falling off a bike.

That too. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

Sheep farming cured my noodle arms.

Beer drinking cured all the other parts of me that used to be noodle-esque.

Maybe I'm taking Bills last message wrong, but I'm picking up a six-pack for my hubby on the way home tonight, just in case.

Beer drinking turns my brain into a noodle.

Is this OT? I can't tell.

charlie

Ahem. I was referring to my torso. I guess there's probably some room for interpretation in what I wrote.

Beer=Viagra?

Returning this thread to a higher plane -- or at least to the original topic -- I wanted to comment on the questions about the working style of these dogs. I don't really know if the non-ISDS/ABCA working beardies are upright, loose-eyed and barky, but the ISDS/ABCA descendants of Turnbull's Blue shown here are generally not. Ben, the Blue grandson, is actually at the strong-eyed end of the border collie spectrum. As for the others, I'd say they are well within the normal variation found in the working styles of border collies. I've told Barbara Starkey, who owns the dogs, how to join the boards so she can post with her perceptions, and I hope she will.

<< The ISDS beardies really look like neat dogs. Is there something in registration regulations--don't even know it that is phrased correctly---that differentiates between the occasional bc pup born bearded and ISDS working bearded collies? I'll assume there is. >>

Not really. If a pup is born to an ISDS-registered dog it is considered a border collie, whether bearded or not. If a dog is registered on merit with the ISDS, it is considered a border collie, whether bearded or not. I've seen the ISDS papers on Grae, the Blue great-grandson shown above, and there's no notation on there that he's bearded, nor is there any notation next to Blue's name on his pedigree that he is bearded. I doubt there's any notation on the papers of the others either, although I don't know for sure.

The pedigree I got from Teun v/d Dool is compiled from ISDS studbook info. Color and coat type is listed for the first three generations (and would be listed for subsequent gens except that there isn't enough room). The information must be recorded somewhere by ISDS even if it doesn't show up on the papers.

Fly's great-grandma:

Ceri 151753
Beard B,W
1984-07-18
T.Ll.Roberts
CI=8.58/4.47%, 78%W

There isn't any pedigree information on ISDS papers, is there? I keep forgetting to get Fly's registration papers from my trainer, otherwise I'd know.

No, there isn't any pedigree information on ISDS papers. I'm glad you mentioned that, because it caused me to realize that the papers I saw for Grae had to be his ABCA papers, not his ISDS papers. So maybe his ISDS papers DO have "beard" noted on them. We'll ask Barbara if she joins us.

I know this is an old thread, but discussion on a yahoo group brought up the question: Are beardies Border Collies? or a different breed altogether?

They are quite distinct, though as this thread notes, there is a good bit of mixing today.

Beardies are more or less a Welsh breed. Although there wasn't any registry until the 20th century (and a lot of working Beardies still aren't registered), the Welsh are fiercely proud of their distinctive lines of sheepdogs - in addition to the beardies there's also pockets of "Welsh collies" although the ATV and the trial-bred collie are overwhelming them rapidly.

http://www.glassportal.com/herding/welsh.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/yoursay/top...mal_magic.shtml

I got to see Ben work quite a bit in my early training days with Carlie, both in training and in a trial or two. He worked very much like a border collie. I don't remember him barking or being upright and bouncy. He was quite stylish and slinky. Very sweet personality though and I like the shaggy face look!

Olivia

Hello,

my name is Christine and i am from Germany.

Since november last year i own a new border collie (beside my two older ones Nelly 7, and Lucy 5)

Her name is Lone. Her father is Jim (by Serge van der Zweep) and her mother ist Kyp.

Kyp has got Turnbull Blue in her pedigree.

Since 2 month now, Little-Lone begins to develop a very special outlook.
Greetings after so many years from Turnbull Blue : A beard grows in her face.

I began to search in the internet for some relatives of Lone - and lucky-me, i found this board with
so many pictures.

Although Lones development is not yet ready, i will show you some pictures of her :



And here are some more :

Lone and friends

Lots of greetings from Germany

Christine
and her unbelievable charming dogs

What a charming liitle pup she is! Welcome to the boards!

Welcome aboard! What a sweet face she has!

ETA -- I just looked at your PicasaWeb album -- the pictures are wonderful! Lone and her friends are lovely, sheep too.

Thank you very much for the compliments

A friend took all this fotos. Its also her picasa Album.
And another friend found this site for me.

We are some people with bordercollies and sheep and from time to time we meet us
to have a little training together (Germanys size allows that)

I own some skudden, Scottish Blackface and Schnucken
(sorry i don´t know if there´s a translation).

Best wishes

Christine

We had Jo Sermon from Brittain come over and do an agilty seminar for us a couple of years ago. She has working beardies to do agility with, and she purchased them from working farms. She sent me some pictures of working beardies as well, hope I can find the links.

According to the time she has spent with the famers she got the pups from, they do work quite differently than border collies - she has spent time with the farmers and watched the dogs work. As well, their conformation is quite similar to the show beardie, i,e, head style, etc. the biggest difference is the coats of them. THey have the flatter head etc - different than a Border Collies.

I hope I still have the links - my computer has given me problems and I have lost some of the links I used to have.

Herzlich willkomm en

I found one link - I know I have more somewhere

http://www.workingbeardies.co.uk/index.html

GORGEOUS photos and I just love Lone's little bearded face. She's a keeper all right. Welcome to the Boards!

What a neat looking dog she is! Very striking!

I wonder - did Beardies and BC's start out as varients of the same type long ago?

I have heard of furry faces on Aussies but they have variety of breeds in their genetic make up so that is not surprising.

I love Lone's little bearded face. Lucky you for Turnbull's Blue's genetics reappearing after all this time!

I hope you'll stay with us here. It's always nice to have members from other parts of the world.

J.

Such a cool suprise and a neat way of saying it!

Lone is really adorable. Do you know how her parents are on stock? The other dogs you have in the pictures look beautiful too!

I'd have a hard time keeping from tugging on her little wiskers, just so cute!

Thank you very much for your warm welcome.

Its very interesting to read here.

I write in a German bordercollie board as well and it is very similar.

Lones parents are still on stock. It was the first litter of her mother Kyp, who
works as a farm dog at the belge/dutch frontier. Originally she is from Wales.

Her father Jim (ISDS No. 277807is one of the most favourite studdogs in Europe
at the moment.
He was winner of the European brace championship last September in Switzerland together
with the bitch Lass, also owned by Serge van der Zweep. Lass, by the way, was winner
of the single championship (and Jim was fifth)

I had several clinics with Serge and felt in love with his Jim... and so last november the
dream to have a daughter from him became true.

Here is a photo of Lone made on the day, when she arrived on our house.
You see, she looked totally different and the Turnbull Blue Genetics decided
to surpise us a few month later



If you like to read more about her father
click here
It´s all written in English.

And here is some more information about me -
unfortunately in German.

Lots of greetings from the other side
of the bc-world

Christine

I hope you'll post often about Lone as she matures. She might be a very special one!

Christine, you should submit her pictures to the Border Collie Museum (link is to the coat type page)- I think they're looking for a bearded picture :-)

She is really adorable!!

Thank you for this interesting link -
í´ll wait a few months and see how Lone matures
and then i will send some photos to the bordercollie-museum.

At the moment nobody believes that she´s a "real" bordercollie.
Most of the people think, she´s a
Giant schnauzer/German shepherd/Terrier crossbread

Lone herself thinks she´s a pig




Christine

Yep that sounds about right... if a Border Collie isn't cookie-cutter black and white with a rough coat, there's no way it's purebred! There's several threads on here about what people have been told their purebred Border Collies are mixes of. Very entertaining, you should read through a couple if you get a chance :-)

Polly Matzinger has some bearded border collies. I got to see one work at Edgeworth, he was a very nice dog.