253 replies to this topic

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Jodi and or Eileen:
At this point in time, I support banning dual registration. I would, however, be interested in hearing from people who do not, and why.

"... some of us who have been racking our brains over them for years may think we've considered every possible option and ramification, and we may be wrong. So new ideas are always welcome."

Here are my ideas- I?m slipping into my flame-proof suit now?

If ABCA really wanted to discourage dual registration and/or indiscriminate breeding of unproven dogs, they could make it simple for breeders to designate on their litter applications that the puppies can not be ?open registered? with AKC (or other conformation registries) or bred. Breeders who feel strongly about it could just check off that box on the litter application, and the individual registration papers for each puppy would then say somewhere ?pedigree only - not for breeding or registration?. This could be revocable by that Breeder, if the dog proved to be something worth breeding later on. I think right now a letter has to be sent in with each individual application requesting non-breeding status, which most breeders don?t even know about. But again, it all boils down to each individual breeder?s desires and commitment.
Or, as the system stands IMO it would be just as beneficial for concerned breeders to go ahead and ?dual register? litters with the orange ?limited registrations?, thus giving the BREEDER the ability to restrict breeding and conformation showing of their puppies. If a puppy buyer doesn?t want AKC papers, they just don?t send them in. But the buyer also can?t ?Open Register? that puppy, where there are NO show/breeding restrictions. At least, Orange ?limited? papers do not allow the dog to show in conformation classes or produce registerable puppies. They are only good for the sporting competitions. I did this with my Golden Retriever pups; it weeded out the people who wanted a ?puppy to breed?. This also gives the average Border Collie owner another venue where they can do active things with their dog, even if they don?t have access to sheep or sheepdog training.

[SoloRiver]

Laurie,

There is a "limited registration" option for ABCA-registered dogs. It just isn't well known. I agree that it could be better publicized and made easier for breeders to take advantage of. If I remember correctly, there isn't even a box to check for it on litter reg papers.

[Marty&Abigail]

[quote]Originally posted by Miztiki:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:
They want working dogs but also good looking.[/quote]I don't really understand this. What is considered "good looking"? Or do you mean conformation dogs who can work?

I ask because people here post lots of pictures (but not enough) of their dogs actually working, and they all look different, and they all are gorgeous. Different colors, coats, ear sets, sizes, shapes... [/QUOTE]yeah, I mean good looking in comformation for working attitude. But I'm just speaking for Italians Border Collie. We have really ugly dogs, and when I say ugly.. I mean really ugly in conformation. Straight hock, they can't pucsh when they run.. well, is very difficult to explain in Inglish! Good looking I mean also light bones.. here there are too many "barbie dogs" really haevy. That's what I'm saying..

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:
Laurie,

There is a "limited registration" option for ABCA-registered dogs. It just isn't well known. I agree that it could be better publicized and made easier for breeders to take advantage of. If I remember correctly, there isn't even a box to check for it on litter reg papers.

You are right - Jim Hall posted a letter a while back that could be attached to registrations - but there is no EASY way for an ABCA breeder to designate it right now.

[Marty&Abigail]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:
Oh, I'm going to break a personal rule and respond to myself.

Marty&Abigail, here in North America, the breed was strictly a working breed for close to a hundred years. It's only been bred with appearance in mind for about ten years. We don't feel that breeding to make prettier dogs can possibly improve the breed. How could it?


That's why we are very passionate about keeping our working lines strictly bred for working. You just can't can't can't do both "brains and beauty" - the science just doesn't support it.

I'm not saying that! I'm like you a supporter of working line! I'm just saying, and I'm speaking for Italians dog, that we sould work to improve the conformation. Because agility, show and some bad farm breeder.. made very bad breeding. And I'm speaking about legs.. that are not enought strong for run, sometimes because too haevy and sometimes to thin.. and a body not enought strong for long day work.. We don't have so many shepherd here that breed border collies for working.. so we have to do in onother way. I'm not a breeder but I have many friends that are breeders, or that mate their dogs because of their herding ability. It not easy for me to explain it in English..

[IronHorse]

Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:
I'm not saying that! I'm like you a supporter of working line! I'm just saying, and I'm speaking for Italians dog, that we sould work to improve the conformation. Because agility, show and some bad farm breeder.. made very bad breeding. And I'm speaking about legs.. that are not enought strong for run, sometimes because too haevy and sometimes to thin.. and a body not enought strong for long day work.. We don't have so many shepherd here that breed border collies for working.. so we have to do in onother way. I'm not a breeder but I have many friends that are breeders, or that mate their dogs because of their herding ability. It not easy for me to explain it in English.. [/QB]

If I understand you correctly what you are saying is that the Italian Border Collies need to be bred to a "working conformation" and away from a "show conformation" and from the way you describe the situation with the Italian Border Collies overall, I would agree and it sounds like you all are in need of good working stock.

By the way I think your english is very good, its light years ahead of my italian and you bring an entirely new prespective to the boards.
You even have an accent

[Katelynn & Gang]

IronHorse:

I work my dogs on stock weekly, exempting my youngest that is only 5 months who is already showing a tremendous eagerness to prove himself worthy of such work which he was bred for.

IMO The difference between Working Border Collies and Barbies are pretty simple to see.

A Barbie Collie?s worth is judged on its ?good? (if you must call them good looks, I think they are revolting) looks and gate. Nothing more. This, in AKC standards, is good enough to prove any dog worthy of breeding "better improved" puppies.

A Border Collie?s worth is judged on its ability to gather, drive, problem solve, and obey commands in and out of sight while thinking all on its own. In order to do all these things correctly, the dog?s soundness also comes into play. As a working community we breed for the best all around working dog, soundness and biddably.

Most dogs that travel all over the country with their handlers to ISDS type trials are top-notch dogs, at the top of their game and the top of their breed. This sort, for the most part, will only be bred to the best of the best with the hope of the outcome being better working dogs then either parent with each other?s strengths combined to complement the others. More then likely, these sort of puppies will be sold into all working homes that have no interest once so ever of registering with AKC. These dogs are the real things, they do what they were bred for and what the dogs before them in their original breed were bred for.

It often offends a lot of AKC people when we call their dogs Barbie Collies because they can no longer work like the breed they so often claim to be. They are no longer the same breed as our Border Collies and never will be again, ever, for the Border Collie is only judged and based on its ability to work while the Barbie Collies no long even hold a flickering thought of competition for our superior working dogs.

When people get offended of the name ?Barbie? which has been bestowed upon their dogs from their own doing, all I can think of is ?Well if you?re upset, how do you think we feel? Having fool dogs like yours running around show rings falsely representing our breed to millions and millions of unknowing people!?

They only have the dogs they have and they can only take what they are given.

Keep our culture safe. Don?t buy from AKC breeders, dual registered or not, don?t sell to buyers that ask about AKC first (unless if it is to make sure your dogs are not AKC registered, then it?s a good thing), and most of all, talk to people about our fight for what is right.

Katelynn

[Dixie_Girl]

Katelynn you are right on the mark. There is not one single breed of dog the AKC has taken that they did not ruin in respects to what it was bred for. If you look in the rules for AKC champs not one word is there to be found for poodles on its retrievability. Or rat terriers on its ability to find rats. Nor will you find one regarding rotts attacking bears. You will find that their wt must be so, their ht must be so, their coat must be so,,,,etc.,etc.,etc.!!!!!! Yeah, BCs are special, because they have not been ruined by the AKC powers that be that don't know squat about a "REAL" dog. Of ANY breed. As I said before. You will never find a dedicated coon hunter getting their dog out of the paper from an AKC breeder. They will talk with other coon hunters and see what bitch is in heat and what dog might do well with that cross. Why? Because they know a AKC coon hound most likely wouldn't even know what to do if a coon was thrown at them. Could you imagine puttin ANY BC in a corral with sheep and they just sorta look around? That would be sad.

[Liz J]

Not so very long ago in my part of the world, every farm had its "Sheppie", an all-purpose collie dog that was generally BC, or a mix of BC and Scotch collie, and rarely a pure Scotch collie. This wonderful all-purpose dog rounded up anything that needed gathering -- livestock, poultry, children -- and provided companionship, gaurded the home place and could be trusted to stay within boundaries of the farm. Selective breeding meant the ones that exhibited mean tendacies were disposed of and the good ones were propagated with an eye toward continuing a breed of sensible, all-purpose, intelligent dogs. It didn't matter what color they were, or even relative size. Unfortunately the world is not a static place, and the need for this type of dog diminished. So the breeding program changes to answer today's needs. HOw you all decide to proceed will impact the breed for the next 100 years. Me, I seek out a discard, a reject whose talents didn't meet expectations because I remember the best part of our old "Sheppie" was his ability to be the best friend a little girl ever had and as adult, I've never been disappointed in the ones that have come into my life. Please don't forget when you're debating which traits to value and propogate, that the BC's gentle nature, loving heart and devotion to its family is a valuable characteristic as well.

[Marty&Abigail]

[quote]Originally posted by IronHorse:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty&Abigail:
I'm not saying that! I'm like you a supporter of working line! I'm just saying, and I'm speaking for Italians dog, that we sould work to improve the conformation. Because agility, show and some bad farm breeder.. made very bad breeding. And I'm speaking about legs.. that are not enought strong for run, sometimes because too haevy and sometimes to thin.. and a body not enought strong for long day work.. We don't have so many shepherd here that breed border collies for working.. so we have to do in onother way. I'm not a breeder but I have many friends that are breeders, or that mate their dogs because of their herding ability. It not easy for me to explain it in English.. [/quote]If I understand you correctly what you are saying is that the Italian Border Collies need to be bred to a "working conformation" and away from a "show conformation" and from the way you describe the situation with the Italian Border Collies overall, I would agree and it sounds like you all are in need of good working stock.

By the way I think your english is very good, its light years ahead of my italian and you bring an entirely new prespective to the boards.
You even have an accent [/QB][/QUOTE]sometimes i forget some "H" or I write some words in a wrong way.. It's just a long time that I don't write i English.. I'm here also to improve it! eheeh..
And to speak about this beautiful working sheep dog!

Yes you understood me correctly. But not just away from "show conformation" but also from agility conformation(to small, to thin, bad legs) and sometime from bad working breeder(health problems). So the only way sometimes.. is to work on the conformation together with herding ability. We are not farmer, and so are not some of the breeder that I know, but they are trying their best to breed good working dog, strong dog in the head and in the body. Good for herding, and also for agility and obedience.. because Border Collies couldn't be breed just for wotking here in Italy..The fanatic of Trials unfortunatly are not so much here in Italy.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

is to work on the conformation together with herding ability. We are not farmer, and so are not some of the breeder that I know, but they are trying their best to breed good working dog, strong dog in the head and in the body. Good for herding, and also for agility and obedience.. because Border Collies couldn't be breed just for wotking here in Italy..The fanatic of Trials unfortunatly are not so much here in Italy

All right, so here's a dumb question. Why do you need Border collies? Is there no native breed that already has the athletic ability for sports that can be honed for whatever you all need? Consider this:

The work the Border collie does is what MAKES it such a cool dog. We know this because the working dog has NEVER been bred thinking about, "Well, let's make these legs a little thinner or use smaller dogs." The only thing breeders think when they choose a dog for breeding is, DOES THE DOG WORK CORRECTLY?

This creates the dogs that have the build you are seeing. As you mentioned, dogs with stumpy legs and square builds have a hard time keeping up with sheep in the Border collie's traditional working environment - large fields and hillsides.

What a dog that works, HAPPENS to look like, is only a small part of what makes that dog able to work. If you breed for one small piece of that you won't bring back the working ability, you'll just have more conformation dogs that can't work that have slender builds instead of blocky builds.

The only way to maintain working ability in a breed (which includes the temperament needed to do the job, the soundness needed to do the job, and the structure needed to do the job) - is to select only dogs that have DEMONSTRATED they have the working ability to do the job.

If you don't have the trials and shepherd work to prove the working ability of these dogs, then I question whether there's a need to breed ANY Border collies. That's breed, not own. Many of us who aren't interested in breeding - or for whom it wouldn't be appropriate - buy dogs from working parents.

But I actually have heard of some trials in Italy, plus there's a European circuit and training opprtunities all over the Continent. They are not quite at the level as their UK counterparts but the trials are something that is catching on quickly, from what I understand.

Your English is very understandable!

[Marty&Abigail]

[quote]Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:
All right, so here's a dumb question. Why do you need Border collies? Is there no native breed that already has the athletic ability for sports that can be honed for whatever you all need? Consider this:

The work the Border collie does is what MAKES it such a cool dog. We know this because the working dog has NEVER been bred thinking about, "Well, let's make these legs a little thinner or use smaller dogs." The only thing breeders think when they choose a dog for breeding is, DOES THE DOG WORK CORRECTLY? [/quote]No we dont' have a breed as the border collie in Italy e Ie don't need one, because I don't use Border Collie for sport. I work with horses and my dog stay with me.. and now she will star working with sheep.
Maybe you haven't read what I wrote.. but my friends BREED for working ability. So I don't understand why you are trying to explain to me what is a Border Collie.. and how it sould be breed. :confused:

[quote]
This creates the dogs that have the build you are seeing. As you mentioned, dogs with stumpy legs and square builds have a hard time keeping up with sheep in the Border collie's traditional working environment - large fields and hillsides.

What a dog that works, HAPPENS to look like, is only a small part of what makes that dog able to work. If you breed for one small piece of that you won't bring back the working ability, you'll just have more conformation dogs that can't work that have slender builds instead of blocky builds.[/quote]yes.. I'm not saying that wee breed firt for morphology and than for herding. Our breeder that are good breeder, do the same reasoning that you have just did.

[quote]
The only way to maintain working ability in a breed (which includes the temperament needed to do the job, the soundness needed to do the job, and the structure needed to do the job) - is to select only dogs that have DEMONSTRATED they have the working ability to do the job.
[/quote]This is an UTOPIA! you know that.. you can use the same idea for any breed and any animal like horses. It's not like that, but I would like it very much. :cool:

[quote]
If you don't have the trials and shepherd work to prove the working ability of these dogs, then I question whether there's a need to breed ANY Border collies. That's breed, not own. Many of us who aren't interested in breeding - or for whom it wouldn't be appropriate - buy dogs from working parents.

But I actually have heard of some trials in Italy, plus there's a European circuit and training opprtunities all over the Continent. They are not quite at the level as their UK counterparts but the trials are something that is catching on quickly, from what I understand.
[/quote]I haven't said that we don't have trials!!!!!!!! We have fortunatly.. but not so many as in UK. But not all the breedes breed just dogs that win trials.. or we would have all dogs with the same parents!!

Your English is very understandable! [/QUOTE]

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I have to respond to what looks like a statement that it's ok to breed for looks (even as a secondary factor), because there's new people reading this all the time and I want the difference to be clear and the reasons for that difference.

Your English is better than that last sentence - at least you don't run on like that. But I'vegot the flu and don't feel like fixing that.

[quote]

quote:

---

The only way to maintain working ability in a breed (which includes the temperament needed to do the job, the soundness needed to do the job, and the structure needed to do the job) - is to select only dogs that have DEMONSTRATED they have the working ability to do the job.[/quote]This is an UTOPIA! you know that.. you can use the same idea for any breed and any animal like horses. It's not like that, but I would like it very much. [Cool] [/QUOTE]This is where I get tangled up. You say you do use the dogs as they were meant to be used. But you say you can't prove their breeding worth in the above manner.

The last two pups I purchased came from parents like that, so, no, I don't know that this is a utopian idea. My next pup will be like that too, and in selecting the breeding I had my choice of many, many nice crosses that were bred with ONLY top working ability in mind.

Not only WINNING trial dogs should be bred. Competance on the trial course is the standard - then you decide what type of dog works for you best and select pups from the dogs that demonstrate that ability the best. Then you go back to superior sires with those abilities, etc, and that's how the breed was created. Not a single time did anyone consider morphology and still we got this nice, well-rounded breed, highly athletic, very sound overall, adaptable, that everyone wants now for pets and sport dogs. Which is perfectly fine! As long as they are not bred to BE pets and sport dogs!

I appreciate so much your participation and your global view on this issue. I hope you don't mind my picking on your statements a bit in an effort to highlight the differences. and I do appreciate that you do value the working dog very much - I've seen your other posts. :cool:

[punkrockbc]

This is a great thread. It has so many wonderful, intelligent replies and opinions.

I agree, that although a general look will always be characteristic of BC's, appearance really should be the last consideration when breeding Border Collies. I HATE that so many noble, smart, keen working breeds have morphed (thanks to ACK!) into apartment-friendly dumbed-down over-sized lap dogs. If you want a dog to lay around the house and love everyone and get occasional walks - get an English Bulldog, or even better a Pomeranian, not a Border Collie.

AND... just to let anyone know who's wondering if families seeking "pet" BC's should go out and buy a Barbie Collie... I have a real working BC, from working lines & cattle working parents. He is not suitable as a working dog, but he IS a wonderful pet dog! A wonderful pet dog is not uncommon in working litters. I consider him a much easier to live with, loving, and intelligent "pet" than all of my neighbors Yellow Labs put together. hehe.

[bobh]

I do not know how you can blame Akc For the dimise of all dogs when the breeders decide what to breed and what not to breed
Then not blame ABCA for letting unworthy BCs from being regestered, or bred .
bobh

[Eileen Stein]

Because the AKC provides incentives to encourage bad breeding, and the ABCA does not.

[Jodi]

Bob -

The AKC sets a standard based on how a dog looks, and invites people to breed their purebred dogs to that standard and to compete to see who has the prettiest dogs. I think people would agree with me when I say the AKC and the breeders share in the responsbility for what the "Barbie Collie" is today.

I don't think anyone is "not blaming" the ABCA for "letting" unworthy BCs from being registered or bred. I think it comes down to HOW to do it where it would be fair, cost effective, and an asset to the breed without losing valuable dogs. The method by which to do this is open for suggestions. Got any ideas?

Jodi

[Eileen Stein]

<< As our world {working Border Collies} changes and I become more aware of our world, my past view on dual registration softens. However, with the AKC books open, what affect would the ban really have? I see added burden for enforcement, but I don't see much benefit towards the ultimate goal of minimizing/eliminating breeding outside of breeding for improving working ability. >>

As you well know, I could write a tome on this subject, but since it has so far proven to be an exercise in futility I decided I would only reply to this if I could limit it to five sentences. So here goes:

I believe we can withstand the overwhelming gravitational pull of the AKC -- the effects of which can be seen all around us, clearer with every passing day -- only if we are able to draw a sharp line with no overlap between their dogs and our dogs, and compel a clear and conscious choice. Permanent open registration certainly makes it harder to resist the gravitational pull, but it doesn't prevent us from drawing that line if we have the will to do it. The purpose is not really to eliminate current breeding for bad reasons, it's to avert the increase in that type of breeding that's inevitable if we do nothing and continue drifting into the AKC's sphere of influence.

There would be little if any added burden for enforcement -- all registration papers would simply contain a statement to be signed. We would rely on people's honesty (or, to take a more cynical view, on their reluctance to be caught publicly in a lie) and on whatever information came to hand. At the very least it would prevent the advertisement and flaunting of dual registered dogs, which in itself is a form of pressure pushing us toward AKC hegemony.

[Jodi]

"Because the AKC provides incentives to encourage bad breeding, and the ABCA does not."

Wow. That sums it up perfectly, Eileen.

Jodi

[bobh]

Does not the ABCA also Add incentives at lest in the ovver breeding of some bitches by sponsering trials.When looking for my newest dog i found some top bitches were being breed at 8 years old that seems old to me but i am not a breeder I THINK WE COULD AT LEST SAY THAT NO DOGS CAN BE BREED BEFORE 2 AND NOT AFTER 6 AND ONLY EVERY 2 YEARS
CAN ANYONE THINK WHY A BITCH SHOULKD BE BREED MORE THAN EVERY 2YEARS AND NOT BEFOR 2 AND NOT AFTER 6