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#1 kelpiegirl

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 10:35 AM

hi everyone:
I took my 3 yr old Kelpie out for a walk at a preserve that is about 200 acres, and has a long winding road through the middle of it, and is also part of the college I work at. Since it is near a city, many people take their dogs to it. Several years ago I used to take my mixed breed there, and she was always on leash, unless we were at the spot where you could see about almost a mile each way. We stopped going to the farm when I moved. Well, today I took my girl there. She is not a confident dog, and though not all dogs/people bother her, some do, which means she will bark a lot. So, we get there, and having a nice walk on the flexi leash. I see ahead of me a family with a sheltie. As we approach, I see the sheltie is not on leash (yes, there IS a leash law, in addition to the college having signs up). So, the Sheltie comes trotting over barking at me. The owners are clueless ignoring this, and I yelled, "it is unacceptable to have your dog off leash on campus". They grabbed the dog, and I heard the little girl say something like "hey, wait a minute" as reprisal for what I said. I kept walking. Then, ahead I see a either cattle dog, or small gsd LOOSE, and I stopped, hoping they would get the idea, that I couldn't keep going. I yelled to them (we were a distance away) that my dog will bark, and could they put her on a leash. They did, and we got by no problems. Then I see a loose dog ahead, but the owner put her on leash before we got close, and both dogs were totally fine. Then, we headed back, and a BC walked by ON leash (good owners). We then passed the mother and daughter, and I heard the daughter say "go get him" to her sheltie!! The mother told her to be quiet and that it is all in the training. Yeah right- train your kid and your dog lady. Then the coup de gras. We were almost to the parking lot, and these guys come up with a GSD, loose. The dog is running around sniffing. I stop, as to signify that we couldn't continue. They ignored me. Then I picked up pebbles, because the dog was running right at my dog. Sensing disaster, and seeing that the owners were IGNORING this, I said "if your dog hurts my dog we are going to court!" In retrospect, it may have a been a bit too verbose, but the bad language, may have been worse :rolleyes: Then, the IDIOT comes up and tells me that he is just trying to say "hi". I ask him if he knows about the leash law, that "things are more relaxed here". He STILL doesn't get his dog. His dog has his hackles up, and the ONLY reason it is steering clear of my dog is because I am in between them. Then he tells me that "dogs take on the personalities of their owners". Then I asked him if he has a PhD in Animal Behaviour. He was a REAL ***************. As I am walking on, I tell him I am getting his license, and he yells, "it's the ford explorer". So, I get in my car, get a pen write down the LP, and go to security, and tell them what happened.

THIS is why there are bad dogs. BAD OWNERS.
I spend 100% of my free time with my dogs. We compete in agility. At agility trials, people are GOOD DOG OWNERS, and don't let their dogs loose to run up to other dogs. My girl has some weird genetics, I think (all my other dogs are very confident) and I am trying to make her realize that life is really fun at all times. It sure is hard when IDIOTS do this sort of thing.

Julie
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#2 Zoe

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 12:32 AM

I sympathize..... I didn't post but Dylan got attacked yesterday. We were walking down a narrow public road - Dylan heeling on leash. I noticed a Golden Retriever up ahead off leash and I stopped. The dog immediately noticed me and Dylan an ran at full pelt towards us. I stepped in front of Dylan and yelled at the owner who appeared from his garden to get his dog back - to no avail. The dog was absolutely in attack mode - I believe he thought he was protecting his property. He went around me and got to Dylan. Dylan put up a bit of a defence and then tried to run away. He actually yelped and he was scared. By this time the owner grabbed his dog. I said a few words to the owner, but acted like nothing happened to Dylan. I'm not going to go down that road anymore - just in case that dog is off leash again. Thankfully, Dylan wasn't hurt. I do have stones in my waist pouch that I wear, but have never used them and to be honest am a bit nervous of doing so. I wonder whether it could make a dog that wanted to attack even fiercer or attack me ?? Does anyone know ?

#3 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 02:13 AM

I think it is a gamble, but carrying mace, is a good idea. It doesn't take long for a dog aggressive dog to really hurt another. One thing I have been told, is that if a fight does break out, let your dog have it's leash so it can get away/defend itself. I know when my mixed breed was attacked, I had no problems getting the attacker away with a stick. My poor dog layed down to submit and she attacked! The owners stood there doing NOTHING. I was MAD.
Julie
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#4 flrpwr52

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 02:58 AM

I usually carry a big stick when we are out walking but my problem is in my backyard.

I have a yellow lab the same age as Zoe living next door. It is never leashed and runs free so when we are out playing it comes running over and tackles Zoe first then Ari.

The owners are never out with the dog and we take the dog home more than they will ever know.

There are people who should not own animals and these people could be on the poster.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if Baily comes to play with her owner but that is never the case and the dog is very rude, as is the owner. It's not the dogs fault I know that, but I don't think I could get my neighbor to sit still and let me put a shock collar on him as much as I would like to.

There are also a few owners and dogs like this at the dog park but you can usually stay away from them. People just don't see the importance of a dog having manners.

When will people understand that it is a priviledge to share your life with a dog?

#5 Eileen Stein

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:00 AM

I'm trying to figure out why I get sad when I read threads like this. Maybe it's because at sheepdog trials (unlike agility trials, I guess) dogs are nearly always loose (even though most of their people are GOOD DOG OWNERS), and very rarely is there even a scuffle. It's a nice thing. I realize that these are usually well-trained dogs belonging to anything-but-clueless owners, and that gives everyone a feeling of security. But the fact is that most dogs are not a danger to others just because they're loose.

Of course, you should always obey the law. If there's a leash law, you should keep your dog on a leash, just as you should never drive above the speed limit, and if you come to a red light on a deserted country road at 3:00 a.m., you should stop and wait until it turns green.

But I just can't see what is described here as so terrible. The worst thing that happened was a verbal altercation between two human beings. That was unfortunate, and I'm sure left both parties seething. Next worst, a little girl showed mild verbal hostility when she felt she, her mom, her dog, or all three were being criticized. That's too bad too. She shouldn't have, although maybe some slack could be cut because she was a little kid. But no dogs were hurt, and it sounds as if no dogs were even threatened. Perhaps some people should have been more alert to your body language. But in every case, the person was right there with their dog, and it sounds as if they all leashed their dogs when asked. (Except maybe the GSD owner -- it sounds as if he may have left the dog loose while he argued with you. But I have to think there would have been a more productive way of initiating the conversation than "if your dog hurts my dog we are going to court!" It doesn't take a Ph.D. in Animal Behavior to know that starting a hostile confrontation with a strange dog's owner is likely to communicate tension and stress to the dog, and bring about what you fear. Luckily it didn't lead to harm in this case, which suggests -- if the dog did indeed remain unleashed -- that he didn't have any hostile intent.)

I won't argue about the law (see above). But this sounds like a place where it would be nice if dogs could walk offleash with their owners, and I can't help thinking that on the scale of offenses that cry to heaven for vengeance this one ranks pretty low.

#6 Nik

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:17 AM

Oh I can gripe about "Clueless" owners until I'm blue in the face. As some of you may have read in one of my previous posts about my next door relative's "inbred to the the point of being retarded" dog just being a royal pain in my dogs behind, the problems are getting worse.

Now their dog has gotten to the point of coming over EVERYDAY at least 4-5 times a day antagonizing my dogs while they are kenneled. We've chased her off, screamed at her while her owners are outside while all of this is going on, and have even gotten to the point that I will not allow Navi or Pache in the yard w/o having a leash on just to keep them from taking chase and attacking her once again. Do you think that talking to them has helped??? Hell no. And now the icing on the cake is they are getting a Chocolate Lab puppy. Like they need another dog, especially one that needs lots and lots of time taken up w/ it. :rolleyes:

A few days ago I took Navi for a walk on leash down the road and of course was on the other side of the street when she came running full speed up to us. Navi was just so happy to greet her, tail wagging and almost pulling me along w/ him just to go sniff. I thought "ok he's on leash and wants to play so maybe this will be a breakthrough". When she got about 10 feet away from us he saw that she was snarling at him and of course he went into attack mode also. I calmed him down and tried to coax her over for a friendly greeting but she wouldn't come. She only comes near them when she knows she has the upper hand of them being behind a fence and can't get her little butt.

Anyway it is to the point that I'm ready to get the paintball gun after her (not to wound her just scare the hell out of her) or just pick her up and take her to the pound. If my dogs can't even have a safe haven in their own yard, I have a pretty good idea of how you felt just taking a walk and MYOB. It's even got me worried about letting Navi and Pache meet new dogs for fear that they may attack them also. (And as I mentioned in the other post that we had to go to Shreveport for the storm w/ 6 other dogs and they all got along great.) It just seems that all the training that I did has been undone w/ this little pain in the rear. I honestly never thought I could HATE a dog but this one I absolutely loathe because of her owners.

I know the kind of frustration you felt and hopefully w/ your reactions you got a point across. It doesn't hurt to just plain use common courtesy!!!!
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#7 GeorgiaBC

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:17 AM

Thank you, Eileen. As I was reading the thread I was wondering how to formulate a nice, calm response. You did it for me.

#8 MrSnappy

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:18 AM

My dogs are almost never on a leash. Yes, I am in violation of the leash laws, but I don't anticipate every encounter as a demonic apocalypse. Seriously, I agree with Eileen it ranks pretty low on the "bad things" scale.

There are dogs that should not be off leash. There is a dog in my 'hood that has on several occasion gone after my dogs and in one instance, caused me a lot of money in vet bills and stress. That dog should be leashed. But the vast majority of dog owners in my neighborhood have decent dogs and we are sharing an urban space - we all need to co-exist without starting wars wherever we go. My dogs have never done anything horrid when they are off the lead, so people who jump down my throat in anticipation of that something horrid that never comes give me the willies. It just seems too extremist.

It's also against the law to ride one's bike on the walks paths in my giant park. But I don't chase down violators and flip out at them. Nothing bad happens when they break that law either.

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#9 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:30 AM

hi eileen:
I see where you are coming from, I really do. Back 17 years ago when I used to walk there every day, we would let our dogs loose- ONLY if we were in the area, where there weren't unknown new dogs coming in, and we could see for a LOOOONG distance, and if we saw someone, we would put them on leash. The dogs in general got a along, but we would always be careful of who was loose etc, because not all dogs/people like to have our dogs run up and jump on them to play. Once a loose gsd at this very place decided to go after my mixed breed- my mixed breed layed down in deference, and in response the gsd mix attacked her- she almost lost an eye. The owners did nothing. Another time there, a person had a loose lab, it came running up to me, but I didn't see- it was friendly, but it nailed me in the knees and I went down (passed out because hyper extending one's knee HURTS!). I wasn't upset at the loose dog, but someone else, who was just walking, may very well have been. There are places in this preserve that you can have your dog off leash (although there is a leash law), you just need to be cognizant of new/other dogs. My dog had never been there, and is fearful of some strange dogs. To have all these dogs come up to her, several yards away from their owners, is not something I would have done to her, had I known it would, I would never have gone. I agree about the court statement- what I really wanted to say as the dog came barreling at us with hackles up, was get your ******* dog on a leash!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, alas this popped out- I have never said anything like this before :rolleyes:
I will say Eileen, that really, unless you were there, you don't know how you would react. I have had my dog attacked at that very site, she was loose, so was the other dog. Everyone who goes to a place with dogs, KNOWS that when you get there, you start out on leash, so the dog can be ushered in safely, through the throngs of people/dogs. This dog was clearly territorial- my dog had never been there and she was indeed feeling concerned about this dog. I would ask, what should I have done? Just kept walking ahead as my dog barked crazily, and this dog came running at us? Oh, and did I mention he screamed for his dog and his dog completely ignored him? And, my dog got behind me, while I yelled at this dog, and got in his way. Perhaps he was just coming to say "hi", perhaps not. I prefer to be safe in a situation like this.

I am a dog person, been one for several decades now. Dogs are my life. With all due respect, I know how to "play nice" with other dog owners. If you respect someone, you get your dog on a leash when another dog comes, chat with the other dog owner, see that the dogs get along, and then, ask if the dogs can be loose.

As for herding trials, I have been to many. The only dogs I see loose are those going to the post, and back to the truck after a run.

It is hard to assess a situation like this, unless you were there. It is sad I agree. It ticked me off, because again, certain people think THEY know what is good for everyone. Respect my space and property is all I ask.

Fwiw, I may go there again, but this time I will be ready should I need to plan my relaxation breathing should another dog come up.


Julie
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#10 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 08:42 AM

Please everyone:

Before you judge what I did in the situation realize these things:

1)I have a fearful dog who reacts loudly (barking)with hair up when afraid- this results in upsetting many other dogs.

2)I have already had a dog attacked badly at this same place, after she had tried to be submissive.

3)Though leash laws are bent (by all of us). The logical way to handle this is know where you are, and the dogs and go from there. Not just let your dog run as soon as you get somewhere, not knowing if another dog is friendly or aggressive.

I take offense to being characterized as "starting a war". If the guy asked if I didn't mind having his dog come up to mine, I would have been fine. He didn't- he just assumed that HIS dog was friendly to a dog it never met, and let all control of his dog go. How would you feel if when out walking your BC, and GSD came barreling at you with hair up, owner yelling for it to come, and said dog ignoring the owner, while your BC was barking crazily, then out of no where a fight broke out and your dog was maimed? Would you get upset then? What would it take?
All I ask is that dogs meet other STRANGE dogs on leash, so that if some dog is going to start a fight, then each owner has control of their dog.

I surely hope none of you have to go through what I have with my dogs being attacked. If people find me neurotic and war mongering, so be it- at least my dogs will not be at the mercy of an idiot who thinks they know everything.

Julie
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#11 Eileen Stein

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:09 AM

Julie, what you're saying here is reasonable and I understand your feelings. I've had dogs of mine attacked by a neighboring Doberman in their own yard -- I could post a picture that would curl your hair. I've had to grab a branch to defend them and me. I've been bit through the fingernail to the bone trying to protect them. But just because I had a healthy fear of that dog (who's dead now -- of natural causes, I hasten to add) for my dogs' sake doesn't mean I expect an attack from every dog I meet. Quite the opposite, because in my experience the vast majority of dogs get along fine when they encounter each other offlead.

It IS hard to assess a situation like this unless you were there, I admit. I'm only going by what you wrote. It seemed to me that you were just exuding hostility to all the people you met, but probably that was only true in retrospect, colored by your dust-up with the GSD owner.

As for what I'd have done in your situation, I guess I'd have called out each time, "Would you mind putting your dog on leash til we get by?" Maybe adding, "My dog is afraid" or "My dog is not good with other dogs offleash." Or perhaps even, "Would you mind putting your dog on leash for a minute? My dog needs practice in greeting other dogs on leash." I think you'd be much more likely to get a cooperative response. And if the person can't get his dog to come, at least he'll try and you wouldn't risk getting the dog riled up the way an argument would.

<< As for herding trials, I have been to many. The only dogs I see loose are those going to the post, and back to the truck after a run. >>

I don't know what to say to this. What kind of trials were they? At the ones I attend, unless they're at some facility which requires leashes (which is very rare) it's an unusual moment when there aren't loose dogs spectating, walking with their people, playing with other dogs, etc., as well as walking to and from the trial field for their runs.

#12 2 Devils

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:17 AM

Julie,

I think the problem is what and how you said things that caused the problem not that you did say something.

You could always ask someone to please get there dog so you can pass because you have a fearful dog. That he/she/it can be aggressive when other dogs enter the personal space.

Maybe the other dogs should have been on leash but we all break that law at some point. And when you have a fearful/aggressive dog, etc... it is taken better when you explain why you would like them to leash their dog.

I had a fearful/aggressive dog so I would ask people to get control of their dog. That she could be aggressive and attack.

I now have a fearful dog (no aggression as of now) and I want to keep it that way. I will ask folks to get their dog and/or I will pick up my dog and keep going.

Some times what you say and how you say it can either get you a pleasant response or a nasty one... Those of us with iffy dogs can get a little jumpy/ansty and things come out wrong and not what we meant.
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#13 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:43 AM

hey kim:
you are so right. I should have put things nicer, but the incident with the guy and the gsd was the last, and I was tired. I did nicely ask the gsd puppy people, and they were really cool- I told them that she would bark a lot. That is really all I ask. I feel bad that I was over heated with the gsd guy, but his arrogance hit the wrong button with me at that time :rolleyes: I now know what to expect, and will just make sure everyone knows what my dog will do. It is sometimes good to see out of someone else's eyes, how to handle things.
Thanks Kim,
Julie
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#14 nancy

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:52 AM

I live near Duke University, which has sections of DUke Forest all ove the county - and even in the next one. There are dirt roads and trails everywhere. It's been fun to walk there, with or without a dog.

But, lately, the dog owners are refusing to leash their dogs. This means dogs rough-housing or more with each other, dogs running up and frightening or knocking over children and elderly, dogs chasing horses and wildlife.... Sure, we used to leave the dogs off leash until, as has been noted, we'd see someone coming. Then, to keep things safe more than legal, we'd hook the leash on. But people refuse to do that.

So Duke is thinking of doing what NC State did with their forest: ban dogs altogether. Abuse a priveledge and you lose it.

My son-in-law is a park ranger at a state park. You wouldn't believe the excuses people have when he meets them and their unleashed dogs. Occasionally an, "I'm sorry." But more often an attack about the "stupid rule".

#15 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 09:59 AM

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) because this gsd looked a lot like the one who attacked my other dog. Once I had a westie picked up and shook by the waist by a hound mix who followed me home- poor macdougall he was running for cover and the thing got him. THAT was really upsetting for me. Divine intervention occured and I picked up a tennis ball and threw it at the dog- nailed him right between the eyes- he took off. I am a VERY bad aim, usually.

I am probably over protective of my dogs, true, but I do think I need to chill out with other dogs coming up, but I will deep breathe WHILE I assess if this dog is being a friendly or not

Course, I could always bring along my Boxer on leash of course!, which would put zee ball in zee other court He is overly friendly, and most dogs hate that!

Julie
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#16 2 Devils

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 11:21 AM

And sometimes us being over protective can cause our dogs to overreact...

Those of us who have had a dog attacked, can become over protective. My Charlotte was attacked by a golden. She was picked up by her head and swung like a rag doll. So yes I have seen it happen and it is horrible and you never quite forget it and you think it is about to happen again when it may not until we overreact and cause the incident to become an attack. I learned that the hard way trying to protect Charlotte from another possible attack and all the dog wanted was to say hi but my reaction caused Charlotte to attack.

Tell people your dog will likel bite... many people don't understand the whole barking thing and the warning.
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#17 karrie

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 12:27 PM

Woops I would not say My dog will bite... This could be her in a situation of liable. If she does bite, they would be able to say, she knew this dog would bite and brought it to here anyway.

Kinda like putting a Beware of Dog sign on your fence. Some insurance companies will drop you, for just that. My MIL had the sign but no dog, insurance company tried to drop her. She had to take down the sign. lol course she took it down but every so often she brings her dogs over from her other property.

#18 sandra s.

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 12:47 PM

Thanks, Eileen, for finding the words I was looking for and being so nice and fair about it.
The same thing goes for the bike thread.

#19 kelpiegirl

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 01:15 PM

Well, we are going back tomorrow, and we will ignore all those loose dogs (at least I will). I will just tell them that she is afraid, if they are within earshot. I will let you all know how it goes.
Julie
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#20 Maralynn

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 01:15 PM

--And sometimes us being over protective can cause our dogs to overreact... --

How true. When the weather is good I often ride my bike the 1/2 mile to the farm to take care of my sheep. Enter the neighbors dog. About 12 pounds of Toy Fox Terror. If he was out in the yard when I rode past he would run across barking and litteraly get in my dogs face (who was on leash running nicely along my bike). If the neighbors were in the yard they would yell at him, but not before he would startle my dog. She was getting to the point where she didn't like going past the house.

The neighbors were nice enough, but they sure didn't have the dog under control.

So next time I let her off leash. She listens well and has a "live and let live" mentality toward other dogs. The little terror came out a barkin' and she stood there and stared at him, looking very confident of herself. He quieted right down and turned back toward the house. He tried it once more a couple days later - half-heartedly. It was the last time I've had a problem with him.

It was kind of amazing - as soon I relaxed and didn't try to keep her away from being attacked, the problem was resolved - and this dog had been chasing bikes and my car for about 2 years before that. I had always been afraid I was going to hit him someday.

I know this isn't always the best way to solve the problem, and I wouldn't have done it I thought they might get in a scrap, but it sure worked in this instance.

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