Working Merle Border Collies

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Hi y'all,

 

I was chatting with some other herding breed folks and we pondering about working dogs vs show dogs.....and one of them asked me a question that I really didn't have an answer for.....

 

Basically in a nutshell, there are merle Border Collies and these folks from the other herding breed were wondering if any of them could herd, as in USBCHA Open level. Someone gave them the impression that the merle lines came from a show kennel in the UK and the merle Bordr Collie could not herd but was mainly a show line dog.

 

I seem to recall that there were some merle that competed in the USBCHA trial but for the life of me, couldn't remember any details.

 

Can someone enlighten me? I am talking at Open level not Novice or arena trials level.

 

Thanks

Diane~

[Pearse]

Rose Anderson from Michigan has a merle called Chi that she has taken from Novice -> Open in short order and is winning Open trials with. She has a younger merle too that is doing quite well.

 

She won at the Crook & Whistle trial in Jefferson WI, twice at Bill Gary's trial in River Falls WI, was 2nd at Chaffin's SDT in Vesper WI, and was 9th and 10th at the WWSDA Fall trial in Portage WI this year.

 

Not sure which lines Rose's merles come from but they can work.

 

Pearse

[WWBC]

Here is a link to some excellent working merles in the UK

 

www.corriedhu.co.uk

 

They belong to Laura Cunningham

 

WWBC

[Jennifer Glen]

They are maybe confused by the blue dogs that Barbara Carpenter wrote about in the UK. She said they were show dogs and not eligable for ISDS registry.

Jenny

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Nope, they quoted a Border Collie breeder from the UK called "Sardrgyl" or something like that lines. They pointed out their Aussies (Merle) and the merle was a Blue Merle. They also heard of red merle Border Collies?

 

Anyone have a pix of a merle running a course?

 

Diane

[WWBC]

Check the UK website posted above

 

Laura ran in the Scottish national

 

Also likes to take beautiful photos of her dogs doing their jobs. The scenery in some of her photos is gorgeous.

 

That kennel prefix is Sadgyll

 

WWBC

 

WWBC

[Keegan's Mom]

I just saw a blue merle run in open in a trial last weekend.

[donna frankland (uk)]

i only usually get to see the smaller trials here, but i have seen plenty of blue merles running, in fact in the cornwall trials they seem quite plentiful! i cant recall seeing any red merles running though.

sorry i dont know the names of any of the handlers or their dogs, except 'mist' but that doesnt help much!

love

donna

[WWBC]

One of Laura Cunningham's dogs is named Mist, she is a Lilac colored dog according to Laura's site. Looks like a red and white to me.

 

WWBC

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm just getting back into this but I think a lady named Alyce runs that dog?

 

All Border collies came from working lines ultimately, and not too terribly long ago (even the down under lines that have been shown for 75 years). So merle working lines do exist. They may have been thinned down and watered down by a prejudice against light colored dogs a few generations ago (ie, given a choice betweeen the merle pups and the solid colored pups in a litter with some potential, the solids would be chosen).

 

And the lines are now of course victim to indiscriminate breeding for the sake of the color alone, or for breed ring qualities or sport dog abilities.

[GOOSEDOGS]

Hi,

Lynn Deshembault,from Maine, had a merle named Dandy. I believe he was NEBCA supreme champ a while back. Her kennel name is MERLYNN border collies as she had alot of merle pups as well as b/w.

Joan

[WWBC]

I think Rose's dogs came from somewhere down South and are related based on info from a couple of other groups.

 

WWBC

[laurie etc]

Alice Urquhart has a nice blue merle running in Open in the East.

The Sadghyl line (Mrs. Hart's) in the UK does produce some show dogs, but they are also ISDS registered dogs (at least originally). I know some merles and reds in agility in the US that come from Sadghyl lines, but they were all ABC or NASD registered dogs. A woman (Leslie Healy) from the UK moved to Texas (in the 80's?) and brought along a few from Sadghyl. She bred working dogs down there for a while, some of which were also sold as obedience dogs. I believe she used the Pepperland prefix.

My Pod goes back to an ISDS dog named Morris' #Mac 183767(also known as the butcher's dog). He won the British National Sheepdog Trial in 1994 and was the only merle to ever do so. According to the ISDS database, he sired 97 pups the following year. Not sure, but statistically, about half of those would have been merles. (But, since merle is not favored by the British, I imagine the top trainers kept the solid color pups, and most of the merles went to pet homes, show homes or farms.

[NancyO]

Dick Williams, in PA, is running a merle named Mirk in Open. Mirk was Dick's nursery dog for 2005. I've seen him run and he is a great dog. Here is a link to information about Mirk including his pedigree.

 

http://www.jaggerwilliamsbordercollies.com/Mirk.htm

 

Nancy O

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Gwen Cassel's O'Brae lines went back to Sagdyl, I believe. Very popular among obedience competitors.

[Guest herbertholmes]

I had a multiple open trial winner that was blue mearle about 20 years ago. She came from wales. man named Jack Burke(i think). It seems he had kept a line of the mearle going by keeping a blue female thru the generations. I never saw him with a mearle running, although his dogs that were running were of the same breeding. There are still blue mearle dogs in this area from time to time off of that same lineage. Herbert

[Jennifer Glen]

Laurie, You have Butcher's Mac confused. You are thinking of his son. Butcher's Mac is W.D. Jones' Mac. Vic Morris's Mac is the dog you are thinking of. He won the English National in 1994 and was reserve champion in the International that same year. HE IS NOT A MERLE! He is a tri. I have his picture, and if you buy the Rural route video of the International from 1994 you can see him run. My Lad is a grandson of Vic Morris' Mac (so your Pod is a relative of my Lad- it must mean this Pod is an extrodinary dog!) and looks very similar to him.

Jenny Glen

PS The International in 1994 was won by Johnny Wilson's Spot

PSS I was just told by a reliable source that Butcher's Mac was a tri too.

[zenotri]

There is an example & picture of a successful trialling merle on the homepage of this website:

 

http://www.aled-owen-sheepdogs.co.uk/

 

"Being a hill farmer in North Wales on his farm just outside Corwen close to the Snowdonia National Park, he has been brought up with sheepdog trialling in his blood. Aled's uncle, William Jones, won the famous Llangollen sheepdog trial in 1899 with Ci Glas. It was fitting that Aled should win this same title exactly 100 years later with Roy."

 

Don't think this dog was from showlines, LOL.

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Jennifer Glen:

Laurie, You have Butcher's Mac confused. You are thinking of his son. Butcher's Mac is W.D. Jones' Mac. Vic Morris's Mac is the dog you are thinking of. He won the English National in 1994 and was reserve champion in the International that same year. HE IS NOT A MERLE! He is a tri. I have his picture, and if you buy the Rural route video of the International from 1994 you can see him run. My Lad is a grandson of Vic Morris' Mac (so your Pod is a relative of my Lad- it must mean this Pod is an extrodinary dog!) and looks very similar to him.

Jenny Glen

PS The International in 1994 was won by Johnny Wilson's Spot

PSS I was just told by a reliable source that Butcher's Mac was a tri too.

oops - I was in a hurry posting - I meant to say that Jones' Mac was "Butcher's"...as far as the merle goes, well that's what I get for going on "hear say" - I could swear that I was told that Morris' #Mac was a merle....I'd love to see the pictures you have.

[concrete]

Ralph Pulfer ran a blue dog in open that was one of the most impressive dogs I've ever seen. I can't remember the dogs name ( it'll come to me eventually) but he also sired some very good dogs.

 

Kevin

[J.E.S]

Ralph Pulfer ran a blue dog in open that was one of the most impressive dogs I've ever seen. I can't remember the dogs name

Are you talking about the dog, Tweed? If so I don't believe that dog was a blue or a merle, I think he is just ticked. I've seen that dog run before and he was very nice.

 

Joan

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

That's what I was thinking. Tweed was definitely strongly ticked, not merle. But I've noticed some of the old records (especially in the UK) don't differentiate between ticked and merled. There was a period when "merle" meant ticked and what we call merle was just called grey. All forms of red, from sable to solid red to merle, were called simply "brown" for many years.

[J.E.S]

Tweed was definitely strongly ticked, not merle. But I've noticed some of the old records (especially in the UK) don't differentiate between ticked and merled.

When I first saw him I wondered if he had some ACD in him because my ACD cross had the same coloring. Of course, then I saw him work.

Ticking is not the same as merling. I have no idea of the genetics of either. But my understanding of merle is a grey/blue base (or red depending) with darker grey/black patches. Ticking is white and black hairs mixed giving it the blueish look. I don't think the two look the same at all. Does anybody have a good pic of Tweed? I had access to some but he is too far away to really see the coloring. I forget who he belongs to now.

 

Joan

[J.E.S]

Also, merle is not the same as blue. Again, I don't know the genetics of either. But isn't merle a separate gene from blue which is a dilute of black? I've seen a lot of blues but they were mostly from show lines and couldn't work. Anybody seen any good working blues?

 

Joan

[Eileen Stein]

Blue IS a separate gene from merle. Blue results when the dog carries two recessive alleles (dd) of the solid dilution gene (D series), and the dog also carries the dominant black color gene B. The dd dilutes the black to blue. The merle gene, M, causes patches of dilution to colored areas, resulting in a blue merle if the dog carries the black color gene B, and a red merle if the dog carries two copies of the recessive form of the B gene (bb).

 

Unlike the D and M genes, which affect the dark colored portions of a dog, the T (ticking) gene operates on the white portions of the dog. Ralph Pulfer's Tweed was basically a white dog (extreme white SwSw -- like my pup whose picture I recently posted in this thread ), but with very heavy ticking making his extensive white appear a heathery grey. He was aptly named. I know I have a picture of him around somewhere (great dog), but I'm not sure I can come up with it. Take a look at Dodie Green's Soot here, and picture that grey coloration being over nearly all of the dog's back, and you'll have an idea of what Tweed looked like.