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Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?


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#1 Katelynn & Gang

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 07:07 AM

I know we've talked about pedigrees before on here with the Bearded Collies and such.

Someone (who?) at one point in time brought up that they had seen a ABCA pedigree with NZ/AU show lines.

I ran across this pedigree while ago but forgot where I saw it and just found it again.

http://www.hillcrest...id=46&Itemid=34

I am just wondering how Gotrah Kaspers Kid sired a dog that is registered with the ABCA? Is he also registered with a working registry that the ABCA accepts?

Thanks!

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#2 SoloRiver

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 01:11 PM

Where does it say the dog is ABCA registered?
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#3 Katelynn & Gang

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 02:05 PM

"Gotrah Kaspers Kid" is the sire of "Terbo's TriHard Indy" who is ABC # 232077.

Then "Terbo's TriHard Indy" is the dam of "TriHard's Cut N Up" who is ABC # 232476.

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#4 Journey

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 02:11 AM

Seeing the others that are AIBC would lead to the assumption he too was AIBC.

#5 KathyF

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 05:20 AM

I believe that he might have been imported before the AKC recognized the Border Collie. So, yes I believe that you are correct in saying that he was most likely registered with the AIBC and that is how his offspring must have been ABCA registered.

I would suspect that there might be a few other NZ/OZ dogs that got into the ABCA stud book this way. :-(

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#6 juliepoudrier

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 05:51 AM

And would this then be a way for CL to have been introduced into ABCA registered dogs (if anyone remembers that discussion a while back)?

J.

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#7 Journey

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:11 AM

Absolutely. If you know Kasper's pedigree you can see where it ties in with the pedigree's they have published as effected.

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#8 juliepoudrier

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:56 AM

So it would be easy enough to track what dogs go back to those lines and avoid them in breeding, wouldn't it? Were any of these dogs ever trialed and then subsequently bred from? Or are the dogs just a subset within ABCA that got there by virtue of their AIBC recognition but which actually haven't been crossed into the working lines (since people wanting to succeed in conformation would certainly want to keep the NZ look to the dogs and therefore would choose to cross with other NZ/OZ lines to preserve the proper look for the show ring)?

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#9 Journey

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:23 AM

I doubt any of the dogs trialed, much less were bred for "work". This site has some CL info http://www.bccnsw.com

They used to publish the pedigree info on each dog and each litter but I couldn't find it. I want to say Kaspers sire or littermate was a carrier and produced an affected litter but w/o the info in front of me I am just not sure.

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#10 Katelynn & Gang

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 08:42 AM

If that is correct, it would be a possible way for CL to get into working lines (though, I believe not to many working lines would cross out to this sort of line but things do happen).

CL is something the AU Border Collie breed has and is not known to the ABCA or ISDS Border Collie.

This could, possibly, be very determent to our Border Collies health down the road.

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#11 Liz P

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:01 AM

I know of a few trial dogs out there who go back to sport lines if you look far enough into the pedigree. What I don't know is if those dogs go back to any AU/NZ show dogs. I wasn't even aware that AU/NZ show lines were imported to the US prior to the AKC recognizing the breed until a few years ago.

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#12 Journey

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:41 AM

To find the pedigree of the affected/carriers you have to go to the info page of the previous link I posted, then to health, then click on the link for CL pedigree's.

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#13 mjk05

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:52 PM

CL is something the AU Border Collie breed has and is not known to the ABCA or ISDS Border Collie.

Just to be pedantic- that's the AU Show border collie. I don't believe its known in the AU Working border collie.

#14 laurie etc

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 06:36 AM

Looks to me like Kasper's a full brother to a known carrier, Gotrah Lancelot Lad, and was indeed AKC registered (not just ILP'd)at some point. He's the sire/gandsire of very famous agility dogs - who may indeed also be ABCA or AIBC or NABCS registered.
http://www.bordercol.../rom/kasper.htm

#15 Columbia MO

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:42 PM

Hi,

I just saw this thread and was going to post about Lancelot Lad, but Laurie beat me to it.

Kasper is indeed a littermate to one of only 26 (?) known carriers. My dog is a Kasper grandson, and I only found out about the CL deal after I got him--very scary. My dog and his dam (Kasper daughter) tested clear.

Kasper did sire several litters. I didn't know he had sired any dogs that registered into ABCA however.

Regarding this quote above: "I doubt any of the dogs trialed, much less were bred for "work".

My dog Savvy (an AKC conformation champion, among his total 25 or so titles) is Kasper's grandson. Just last weekend, Savvy was Reserve High in Trial at an AKC trial from the Advanced Sheep class. The only dog in the trial to beat him was handled by a USBCHA Open handler and beat Savvy by a single point. For those who knock AKC trials, Savvy also competes in USBCHA Open sheep buddy-brace, Pro-Novice sheep regular, and Novice cattle (2nd place of 16 at his first cattle T&P trial so far). So yes, Kasper has at least one working descendent. I'm not sure, but I was always under the impression that Hillcrest BCs trialed in USBCHA as well.

Columbia, MO

#16 juliepoudrier

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:35 AM

Columbia,
I believe the point being made in the post you quote above is that it's *unlikely* that working dog breeders (at least those from whom most of us who are serious about working dogs would buy from) flocked to dogs of Kasper's line to produce working dogs (therefore reducing the likelihood of CL getting into "real" working lines). It's great that you work your dog, have tons of titles on him, and even trial in P/N, but that doesn't disprove the assertion that folks breeding from Kasper's or Lancelot's lines were not likely to be breeding for work. The exception doesn't prove the rule, and this discussion isn't about any one individual's dog.

Now since you have a conformation champion (among 25 or so other titles) and are apparently pro-AKC, how about visiting the other active thread in this section and giving us your opinion on AKC and puppy mills? I'd honestly like to hear from someone who is actively involved in AKC, not just folks who have no intention of being involved with AKC.

J.

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#17 cgt

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 03:02 AM

Just a point of information:

Being a USBCHA Open Handler/Dog means nothing.
Anybody can enter. Any dog can enter. There are
no restrictions. It is, well, Open.

The hard part is to win or place at USBCHA Open trials and
to do it consistently. That means something.

Also, what is "buddy-brace"? This is certainly not a USBCHA sanctioned class.

charlie

#18 Firchow

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 03:56 AM

My esteemed Mr. Torre,

Buddy brace as I know it is a "just for fun" event sometimes held after a trial and involves several dogs and handlers:

One dog and handler do the outrun, then another dog and handler take over and do the fetch, another dog and handler do the drive..... and so-on.

It's just something people do for fun on occasion and is more about the betting and laughter than about dog work. I think teams are usually drawn out of a hat and are competing for a jackpot or perhaps a cocktail. I think people often use their green dogs just to make things more interesting.

Think of it as similar in spirit to a potato sack race at a company picnic.

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#19 Shetlander

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:53 AM

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:
giving us your opinion on AKC and puppy mills? I'd honestly like to hear from someone who is actively involved in AKC, not just folks who have no intention of being involved with AKC.

I'm not Columbia, but I'm fairly active in AKC since they're very much the main agility game in town. I've never been a big fan but I didn't think they were Satan either. Now I'm not so sure. They've confirmed my belief that their goals first and foremost are all about making money. I find the Petland thing beyond disappointing and amazingly, blatantly hypocritical for an organization this is allegedly promoting any version of "improving" the purebred dog. There is quite an outcry of outrage among hard core AKC folks over this development. It will be interesting to see if the AKC backs down or if that is even possible depending on the wording of the contract with Petland.

Liz


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#20 Columbia MO

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 05:13 AM

Hi all,

Regarding "buddy brace," it is non-sanctioned class at many USBCHA trials here in Missouri. Calling it a "just for fun" class is a matter of opinion. Most people I know (BC owners and otherwise) would consider *every* USBCHA class a "just for fun" class, because they do not grant any titles.

Anyway, the entrants at our Buddy Brace last month were almost entirely Open class placers (in the money) plus our team, both from P/N. It is not for green dogs and in fact can be harder to manage than just having a single dog/handler on the course. I was just mentioning it to let people know that in fact an AKC conformation champion and grandson of the dog in question (also a conformation champion) is quite capable of shedding, penning, etc.

Regarding the AKC or myself as their "representative".... First of all, I do not breed and have never bred. My conformation champion JRT and BC are both neutered.

I am involved with rescue and am the co-chair of the AKC National Specialty Rescue Benefit this Oct. In previous years, I ran the other Rescue fundraiser at the specialty (the Fun & Games). I have gone undercover to puppy mills and written articles that are easy to find online. I was one of the people that advocated for UKC to crack down on puppy mills, as mentioned in the other thread. And I'm an active volunteer of our local humane society.

So I hope you don't have to ask whether or not I support the new move by AKC regarding Petland. I have already written to the AKC expressing my opinion on this and suggesting that they instead increase funds by allowing mixed-breed dogs to ILP and compete in performance events. However, this would certainly not cause me to stop doing AKC events, anymore than the ABCA's hypocritical refusal to allow conformation champions to register on merit prevents me from competing in USBCHA.

Columbia, MO


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