Eileen Stein Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Some of you may remember an earlier thread about ISDS and ABCA registered "bearded" border collies, and speculation about what would happen if someone tried to register one of them with the AKC. Well, here's the answer. The owner of a great-grandson of Turnbull's Blue (a working beardie registered on merit by the ISDS) did in fact apply to register him with the AKC. She submitted both his ABCA papers and his ISDS pedigree. The dog has a very coarse, wiry coat and a "whiskery" muzzle, which was apparent on close inspection in the pictures she had to submit, but the AKC did register the dog without incident. The owner took him to one AKC herding trial weekend; she entered him in Advanced Course A, and despite the fact that she had never been to an AKC trial before, he won the first day and came in second the next day (coincidentally, the dog who beat him the second day was also a Turnbull's Blue descendant, but with no evident beardie characteristics). Soon after that she received a form letter from the AKC saying that a question had arisen regarding the pure breeding of her dog, and telling her that she must submit further photographs of the dog taken in a specified way, within a specified period of time (15 days, I think), that after the photographs were reviewed a decision would be made as to whether the dog was of impure breeding, and that in the meantime he could not participate in any AKC competitions. When she called the number listed for further information, she was told that the AKC rep who had been present at the trial (and who had been very pleasant to her in person) had made a complaint. She sent a letter which said as follows: Concerning the dog in question, XXXXX, AKC # XXXXXXX, he is in fact pure bred by both ISDS and ABCA standards. As you know, these are both performance (not conformation) registries. Both of XXXXX's grandfathers are national sheep dog champions in Great Britain. He carries genetics that are very much sought after by working sheepdog people. He does have a heavy coat and whiskers - one of many coat variations of the working Border Collie. There are a number of similar dogs registered with the ABCA and even more registered with the ISDS. As per our conversation of xxxxxxx, I am submitting additional photographs of XXXXX and photographs of four other ABCA registered dogs of the same coat type. Please be in touch with me if you require further information. A couple of weeks later, she received the following letter by certified mail: We have completed our inquiry into the dog in question, XXXXXXXX. We received from you an application to register said dog. The application was processed in the routine manner and your dog was registered with the AKC, subject to our right to revoke such registration. It is the committee's decision that the dog listed above is not purebred to the satisfaction of the American Kennel Club. In accordance with the right reserved by us, we have cancelled the registration of said dog. Sincerely, Interestingly enough, an unrelated letter from someone else had earlier been sent to AKC directors pointing out that the ABCA registers dogs on merit and therefore ABCA papers are no guarantee that all the dog's ancestors were border collies, and mentioning this dog as an example. Apparently that letter was ignored and no action was taken in response to it. But if the dog is seen and doesn't LOOK like a border collie, it's out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Thank you for the update, Eileen. Why am I not surprised? Oh, and let me guess. I'll bet the AKC didn't send a refund check for the registration that has now been cancelled, did it? "subject to our right to revoke such registration" It will be interesting to see if I have a right to revoke my own registration. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 I'd be contacting my lawyer ASAP to see if there was any legal action that could be taken. If AKC has openly started to register ABCA and ISDS dogs they should be willing to take a dog from either registry, so long as that registry considers it a purebred. And they didn't look twice at the other dog because it looked like a purebred, let me guess? Sounds like some sort of sick racism to me. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 I would wonder if any complaint would have been made if the dog "in question" hadn't won one day and placed second the next. It's a very good example of AKC "picking and choosing" in an arbitrary fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 AKC--the concept of what goes into a working dog eludes them. As 5 or 6 pages of posts pretty much concurs, let's keep it that way. I'm wondering if the owner of the bearded BC applied for registration because she actually wanted to participate in AKC herding tests or to prove a point. Either way, I think she has a point to prove now---with AKC, though, it's like pissin' in the wind. For them, it's much easier to deal with cookie cutter dogs. Yeh, I'd like to see a lawyer involved in this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Eileen, What is your view on this in legal terms? Would the owner have a leg to stand on? Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Probably not -- the AKC sets the terms under which they deal with you, and they've probably specified somewhere that they can revoke your registration for any reason or no reason at all. You might be able to get your registration fee back, but it wouldn't be worth the hassle. It doesn't really matter, because in this particular case the owner is not someone who would want to pursue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 I am sure they do have their butt covered but everything has its loop holes. I just do not understand how they can legaly revoke her dog's registration and not the other who is related, all on looks alone. Do they not understand that the ABCA and ISDS have Beards/Borders in their stud books, as well as their own stud books now that they have taken dogs from ABCA and ISDS lines? Is the BCSA informed that we have what they would consider mutts in our ABCA and ISDS lines? And in their AKC breeding lines also? Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Thanks for the update Eileen. I'm not surprised at the ultimate result. Too bad they couldn't wait till the dog in question had received its hercing championhsip! So now we have a way for folks who want to deregister their dogs with AKC. Get thee to Photoshop and convert your dog to a beardie! Than ask to be deregistered. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well we know how to really irritate them-- take wierd looking dogs and register them- then take them to a few AKC shows and do decent. Then make them dump them. Do that enough and it will raise the issue of wether ABCA dogs are truely worthy of being registered with AKC. I got a white dog with back legs that look like rabbit legs-- think thats enough??? I also have a coon hound cross/ long embarrassing story/He looks like a coon hound colored up classic BC. That would be interesting to take to AKC He actually works some(too early to tell much 4mo old) . And he hunts coons at night.Talk about versatility I have plenty of extra ABCA papers already that could go with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Just curious as to their logic---probably an exercise in futility, but how far back were beardies in this dog's pedigree. AKC just recently accepted the Black Russian Terrier into their ranks and that breed was slapped together relatively recently---as in the early 50's? What about recessives that pop out in certain breeds, like long haired whippets? The only difference between a case like that and THIS case is that whippets have been recognized by them for a long time. In this case, the owner of the BC was asking to be admitted into their ranks. That's what you get when you take an actual working bred dog to a registry for whom working is a memory for most of their breeds. Considering the mentality you're dealing with, it's just as well. Let them have their barbie collies and let them think they've got the real thing. @@ What's the point in trying to educate them. You might say, they did the breed a favor rejecting the BC in question. It furthers the split. That's what everyone wants. Wonder what they'd do with my cur looking brindled guy, Satchmo? BTW, what's everyone's pick for the Garden? (Just jokin') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 As I've mentioned before, Fly is part beardie. She is ISDS registered and could easily be registered with AKC. She's not at all unique in her background either. But since to AKC looks are all that matter, I guess she'd be acceptable, even though they'd probably find her rather fugly. I guess fugly is better than hairy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Does anyone know if the people in the BCSA know that we have these dogs in our lines? j/w Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hey all,,,,,,I finally figured out what AKC stands for! Another K-9 Cloned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I think the issue for the AKC may have to do with Turnbull's Blue. Someone who has those Belgians that the AKC decided to split into four breeds without a thought for the fate of pups born into the wrong color and coat for the phony breed division explained the matter to me. Turnbull's Blue cannot be in the pedigrees of AKC Beardies and AKC Border Collies. It is not possible for the AKC to envision that. Don't ask me why. One line or the other had to go...either the Beardies with Turnbull's Blue or the Border Collie with Turnbull's Blue. It would have been better if the AKC had closed the stud book, of course, and it's a damn shame Barbara's beardie didn't get shown in conformation in time...just to show those poor conformation judges what a good border collie looks like. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Originally posted by PennyT:...those Belgians that the AKC decided to split into four breeds without a thought for the fate of pups born into the wrong color and coat for the phony breed division... How about this "news flash" from BCSA? There is a member poll for the consideration of splitting the Open conformation classes for Barbie Collies into colors. Here is the information from the BCSA website: From the website of the Border Collie Society of America (BCSA)BCSA would like to receive feedback from the members on dividing the Open class in conformation into colors. This would affect the Open class only, other classes would remain mixed. The division of the class into colors is already allowed for with AKC. In keeping with our breed, the divisions would be fairly broad and diverse. Current suggestions from research done are: Black - Black would encompass all dogs that are predominantly black, regardless of markings Red - Red would encompass all dogs that are predominantly red, regardless of markings Merle - Merle would encompass all dogs that are predominantly merle, regardless of which color merle or markings. All Other Colors - All Other Colors would encompass all dogs that are not in the above divisions. Examples would be Blue, Gold, Sable, etc. By listing the color divisions by the predominant color it would be hoped to keep confusion as to which division a dog should be entered in at a minimum. Looks like "the fancy" is again making decisions based upon the really important things in the dog world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 aaahhh -and once upon a time cocker spaniels used to be handy little upland hunting dogs and it didn't matter what color they were....now look at 'em... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Kate said: "I just do not understand how they can legaly revoke her dog's registration and not the other who is related, all on looks alone." Which dog is this that is related and whose AKC registration is okay? Sounds like an interesting possibility for border collie conformation. The Beardie people will go ballistic which might encourage the AKC to rethink closing the stud book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 > Yes, they do. But if they took notice of that, under the principles of "the sport of purebred dogs" they'd have to refuse to accept dogs from those registries. But they want them. So it's much better to ignore that fact, and just throw out individuals whose looks reflect that "impure breeding" on a case by case basis, and overlook the other ones. > Blue was the dog's great-grandfather. He was on the pedigree submitted, with ROM under his name, but of course "ROM" means something different in dog fancy circles so they may not have paid attention to it. All the other dogs in the pedigree were registered border collies. > I dunno. As I said above, he was on the pedigree originally submitted to the AKC, on the basis of which this dog was registered, and there are other Turnbull's Blue descendants registered as Border Collies with the AKC, against whom no action has been taken. I believe a couple of them are even bearded, but their owners do intensive "grooming" on them (scissors for sure, and maybe mousse) before taking them to AKC events. I wonder if Turnbull's Blue is actually IN any AKC Beardie pedigrees -- does anyone know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 That other related dog belongs to someone who has no interest in the issue and "just wants to have fun with her dog." She would not show the dog in conformation. I'm a mean obnoxious fanatical zealot, as is well known, but not so mean that I would out this person's dog. Now if a DIFFERENT related dog could be found, with an owner who wants to do something for the cause . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Someone had a bitch from the lines for sale. If I had had room for her you bet I'd have bought her in a heart beat just to rub AKC the wrong way. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 What is Blue's ISDS number? I'll do some looking around and see if I can find anything. Katelynn EDIT: Found it. Here is a link that shows Blue is anyone would like to see him! http://62.119.28.247/irena/beardis.nsf/l3vy/18152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 And here is the list of his offsrping that are considered Beards. http://62.119.28.247/irena/beardis.nsf/val...1256B6700231F40 Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I know someone who had a Beardie descended from Turnbull's Blue. I have written to verify this information. I do not however know if the dog was AKC registered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 aaahhh -and once upon a time cocker spaniels used to be handy little upland hunting dogs and it didn't matter what color they were....now look at 'em..And try grooming them. I doubt they would last long in the field with that hair which would attract every sticker and burr. I hate Cocker fur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.