Jump to content


Photo

Battling the AKC


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#1 havenjm

havenjm

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 106 posts

Posted 06 August 2004 - 01:16 PM

I am hoping to get a group together to brainstorm about ideas of ways to really work towards getting the akc to drop the BC as a recognized breed. Any ideas are welcome (and i mean any) so don't hold back.

#2 sea4th

sea4th

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,628 posts
  • Location:Hooterville

Posted 07 August 2004 - 01:07 AM

Closing the stud book is probably the best anyone can hope for--and then perhaps changing the name of the breed, but once it's in, I have never heard of a breed being removed from AKC recognition---individual dogs and offspring, yes, but never a breed---but I think you have to close the stud book first for any action to be meaningful.

Vicki
Vicki
"For the Love of Pete"
Think Dog


"Lord willing, and the creek don't rise"

Our Dogs Past & Present:
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/18267

#3 Rebecca, Irena Farm

Rebecca, Irena Farm

    Together, We Can Move This Mountain

  • Registered Users
  • 6,635 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pilot Mountain, North Carolina, USA
  • Interests:Sheep (dairy), assistance dog (SD/full access and Emotional Service Animals), general training, stockdog trialing, dock diving, lure coursing, flyball

Posted 07 August 2004 - 04:00 AM

I agree - such a group's efforts would be best directed towards reasonable goals such as push to get the studbook closed and supporting and clearly defining the working Border Collie (supporting breeders who have the best interests of the breed in mind).

I'd suggest working within a group like the USBCC and/or the ABCA - the USBCC in particular has a history of fighting this battle already.
Becca Shouse - Irena Farm, Semora, NC
Cord, Ted, Gus, Sam - plus Maggie, Zhi, Lynn, Jetta, Lu, Min, and Tully

Posted Image
http://irenafarm.blogspot.com/

#4 Tuck's BCBuddy

Tuck's BCBuddy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 580 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 03:32 AM

I agree as well. Even if it were possible to get the AKC to drop a breed from recognition, I unfortunately believe that as long as there is money to be made, the AKC will not give in to any pressures to drop the breed.

Therefore, IMHO, time is probably much more productively spent in pressuring the AKC to close the studbooks.

I guess I still wish there were a way to get them to use a different name for their recognition. Yanno, leave the border collie name to the true working lines, and they use a different name for their registry/recognized breed.

Course, since such a name difference for distinction of lines has been discussed before, and it seems like a wasted effort to even go there with the AKC, and while I know the that ownership of the border collie name more rightfully/justifiably belongs to true working lines, has it ever been considered to make the name distinction on this side, i.e, say the Herder Collie?

On second thought, nevermind on that last part. That'd send no useful message to the AKC, and just help support their self-image as the all powerful empire that they think they are (I almost said evil empire, but I doubt they see anything evil in what they do).

#5 Rave

Rave

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 2,557 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 03:36 AM

Well I live near one of their big regional offices, maybe I can go in with some whiteout and change "border" to "barbie" and make them think it was their idea. :rolleyes:

-anonymous

#6 Doug Boyder

Doug Boyder

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 70 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 03:56 AM

The word "Border" refers to the border between Scotland and England.
I believe "Collie" is Anglo-Saxon for Coal, or Black?

The "Border Collie" name could almost be described as Appearance-Based.

I would like to take credit for the term "Herder Collie" though Do I need to patent this?

#7 Denise Wall

Denise Wall

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,761 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 09 August 2004 - 04:20 AM

"Herder" (as well as "border" as in, my border herds beautifully) tends to be an AKC type term. Most livestock people say their dogs work stock. I for one would *hate* the breed name changed to herder collie.
Denise Wall
Stilhope

#8 Tuck's BCBuddy

Tuck's BCBuddy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 580 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 04:43 AM

Okay, how bout the Stockwork Shephard Collie then...

Just kidding, I still feel, on further thought, that caving to the AKC on the name, would not be sending them the proper message.

#9 Rebecca, Irena Farm

Rebecca, Irena Farm

    Together, We Can Move This Mountain

  • Registered Users
  • 6,635 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pilot Mountain, North Carolina, USA
  • Interests:Sheep (dairy), assistance dog (SD/full access and Emotional Service Animals), general training, stockdog trialing, dock diving, lure coursing, flyball

Posted 09 August 2004 - 04:52 AM

I've suggested to AKC folks on a couple different occaisions that they could take the name Telfer Collie. Sounds very dignified and historic, eh? And they are always saying that their standard is based on how Old Hemp looked.

Laura (excuse me, "anonymous"), you'd have to fight Colin over your plan. I think he owns the copyright to "barbie collie" or something. Maybe we could convince him to give it up for this cause, though. :rolleyes:
Becca Shouse - Irena Farm, Semora, NC
Cord, Ted, Gus, Sam - plus Maggie, Zhi, Lynn, Jetta, Lu, Min, and Tully

Posted Image
http://irenafarm.blogspot.com/

#10 Tuck's BCBuddy

Tuck's BCBuddy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 580 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 05:16 AM

Not 100% sure, but in an earlier thread, I believe Colin actually did volunteer to give up all rights, if they'd just use it and leave the true border collie alone. :cool:

BTW, good suggestion to them Rebecca. 'Course, if they don't like the dignified name you suggested, and thats their response, why don't they just use the name Old Hemp Collie then?

#11 Rave

Rave

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 2,557 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 05:53 AM

I'm sure Colin would "give it up"...we have a deal, I publicly make fun of him and he pretends not to read the thread. LOL

#12 sea4th

sea4th

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,628 posts
  • Location:Hooterville

Posted 09 August 2004 - 06:26 AM

It would have to be on the AKC to change the name. The Jack Russell people were successful in that there there is no longer an AKC Jack Russell but the Parson Russell terrier. If the working sheepdog people adopted yet another name for their dogs (weren't border collies just collies before the Lassie folks hijacked the name?), then it would only be a matter of time before someone brought to AKC's attention, "the working sheepdog", try to standardize them, and here we go again. I see nothing wrong with them changing the name to barbie collies. It's trendy, the public could easily identify with the image which would mean more money beginning with registration fees for the AKC, market it as the new yuppy puppy---it would be a win/win situation.

Vicki
Vicki
"For the Love of Pete"
Think Dog


"Lord willing, and the creek don't rise"

Our Dogs Past & Present:
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/18267

#13 Tuck's BCBuddy

Tuck's BCBuddy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 580 posts

Posted 09 August 2004 - 07:33 AM

Vicki,
I hadn't realized the Jack Russell thing. Any details on how the Jack Russell folks went about accomplishing this? Heck, if its been done before, sure seems like it could be done again.

#14 Eileen Stein

Eileen Stein

    Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 4,944 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Shady Side, MD, USA

Posted 09 August 2004 - 11:35 AM

Unfortunately, and contrary to popular belief, the Jack Russell name change didn't come about through pressure from the working JRT people. Here's a brief history of the Jack Russell Terrier vs. AKC experience, first posted here quite a while ago:

Like the border collie, the Jack Russell Terrier was recognized by the AKC against the wishes of most JRT breeders and owners. This occurred in 1997. The JRTCA, the Jack Russell registry, had the same concerns as we do about deterioration of their breed's working ability as a result of AKC registration, and moved aggressively to protect their dogs by invoking what's called their "conflicting organization rule." Under that rule, no one could join or continue as a member of the JRTCA who registered their JRT with the AKC. That meant that they could no longer register dogs with the JRTCA, and could not compete in or judge JRTCA trials.

A lawsuit was filed against the JRTCA by one of its affiliate clubs, which did not wish to enforce the conflicting organization rule, and by a couple of JRT breeders who dual registered and whose JRTCA membership was cancelled because they registered with the AKC. Several of the plaintiffs' claims were thrown out before trial as being clearly without legal merit. The case went to trial on the remaining claims, and the judge ruled in favor of the JRTCA. The Court held that there was no legal basis for requiring the JRTCA to change its policy, and that it was free to continue enforcing its conflicting organization rule with respect to its members and activities under its auspices.

The name change of the AKC breed from Jack Russell Terrier to Parson Russell Terrier had no connection with the lawsuit. The change was proposed by the AKC parent club (then called the JRTAA, and now called the PRTAA), so that the name would be consistent with the British Kennel Club, which is now using the name Parson Russell Terrier. Some of the other overseas Kennel Clubs (e.g. Australia, Ireland) recognize two sizes of the dogs, terming the smaller one "Jack Russell Terrier" and the taller one "Parson Russell Terrier." The breed standard of the AKC JRT specifies the taller size, so there too the name change contributed to international consistency. The AKC went along with the parent club's request. So unfortunately this does not give rise to any hope that we could get AKC to change the name of their border collies, since neither AKC nor the BCSA wants to do so.

#15 Tuck's BCBuddy

Tuck's BCBuddy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 580 posts

Posted 10 August 2004 - 09:55 AM

Gee, then it doesn't seem there are many options other than to tread water for now, and pray they close their studbooks stat.

#16 sea4th

sea4th

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 3,628 posts
  • Location:Hooterville

Posted 11 August 2004 - 01:38 AM

With some of their recently proposed policies which seem to cater to millers, there are many within AKC's own ranks who are really upset with them. Are they rotting from within? I don't know. How will this specifically impact the decision to keep the stud book open or close it, I don't know, but continually extending the closing date on a studbook as in the case of border collies is really unprecedented for the AKC. It's always been a forbidden topic of conversation (kind of like the crazy uncle in the far bedroom)--something that one just didn't talk about, that the mainstay of AKC's funds were registration fees, and for all the lip service they gave to responsible breeding, staying away from puppy mills, etc., there had to have been some averting of eyes, "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" going on when it came to puppy mills, the bulk of their registration $$$$. When confronted with this, AKC's pat response was "we are only a registry".

I remember some years ago, a man who I think worked for AKC, perhaps he was even a conformation judge, and he went public with the fact that AKC isn't all it was cracked up to be. He even appeared on 20/20. (I might have the info somewhere, but I'd have to dig through years worth of papers to find it). AKC's response made him look like a disgruntled nut case and most folks sided with the big corporation. Pretty soon, this guy faded from the scene. You never heard from him again. Now, years later, his allegations appear to be surfacing.

AKC must be feeling a financial pinch for them to so openly cater to mass producers and risking the wrath of reputable people. Which brings me to my whole entire point. If they are looking to expand their coffers, they just might pussyfoot around with the border collie stud book for a while longer.

I have a feeling that the answer is in front of us. We just don't see it yet.

Vicki
Vicki
"For the Love of Pete"
Think Dog


"Lord willing, and the creek don't rise"

Our Dogs Past & Present:
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/18267

#17 Bill Fosher

Bill Fosher

    Shepherd in the woods

  • Registered Users
  • 4,765 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westmoreland, NH

Posted 11 August 2004 - 02:27 AM

What's the inverse of "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"?

In the past, I have thought it was really important that the two breeds currently being called Border collies have different names. Now I'm not so sure it matters. Suppose they change their breed name. All the nonsense they have promulgated about Border collies for the past 10 years is still out there.

Suppose we change the name. Then we have essentially agreed that they are right -- the thing they have named a Border collie is a Border collie.

I don't think either avenue really accomplishes much.

In the end, I think it would end up like the show sheep world, where the unscrupulous breeders have both Hampshire and Suffolk sheep available, depending on what you're asking for. Or like the intrepid mother who has one child that likes hard salami and one that likes genoa, and somehow magically makes both kinds appear from the same package.

That's going on now with dual registered dogs, to be sure, but at least we know about it.

Our problem is that the best (at least the only likely-to-happen not-so-bad) outcome is that the AKC close its studbook. None of us are in a position to work to make that happen. Perhaps someone could go undercover and infiltrate the BCSA and add his or her voice to those that are calling for the closure of the studbook, and foment a revolution from within. That's probably the best hope we have of getting the studbook closed. Right now the BCSA and the AKC have little to gain from closing it and a lot to lose, so I don't hold out a lot of hope there. I don't even know how the BCSA is structured -- if it is democratic or run by a self-electing board, for instance.

#18 PennyT

PennyT

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 571 posts

Posted 11 August 2004 - 03:09 AM

That's a thought, Bill. Too bad most of us who want the AKC stud book closed are fairly well known to the active BCSA members.

I want to show Ben from the previous thread in conformation. I've seen him work. A tad too much eye for my taste but he's a good dog anyone would be pleased to own and work. Showing him in conformation would be an excellent way to do what so many AKC types have advocated for years: get good, working border collies into the conformation ring so that conformation judges can see what they look like. Of course, an experienced conformation handler, even one with a little experience, would be a better choice.

Unfortunately, not closing the stud book is not entirely unprecedented. Bill's point, though, is well taken because when the greyhound stud book closed, it was at the request of the parent club.

Penny

#19 Rave

Rave

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 2,557 posts

Posted 11 August 2004 - 04:25 AM

AKC must be feeling a financial pinch for them to so openly cater to mass producers and risking the wrath of reputable people.

I've known a few people who either worked or currently work at AKC and all have told me "AKC is a sinking ship." Can it ever sink fast enough? Wish there was something we could do to help it along!

-Laura

#20 SoloRiver

SoloRiver

    Canis sapiens

  • Registered Users
  • 4,701 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Eugene, OR
  • Interests:working sheepdogs, agility, behavior and training, rescue

Posted 11 August 2004 - 05:39 AM

I have not been able to figure out why AKC accepts registrations from ISDS and ABCA in the first place, since by AKC's definition, both registries allow mutts. By AKC's definition, Fly is a mutt. She has Beardie blood through her great-grandmother. And yet I would have no trouble whatsoever registering her with AKC.

AKC's Open Registration requires the following:

1. The application completed and signed in ink. (Note that if an AKC Customer Number is not known, it does not need to be included.)

2. The registration fee of $50, payable in U.S. funds. DO NOT SEND CASH.

3. An 8.5" by 11" photocopy of the original registration certificate issued by the applicable registry identifying the applicant as the recorded owner of the dog. DO NOT SEND THE ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE.

4. An 8.5" by 11" photocopy of the original pedigree issued by the U.S. registry containing at least three generations of ancestry, establishing that each dog in the three generations was of the same breed, and registered with a registry whose pedigrees are acceptable to the AKC. DO NOT SEND THE ORIGINAL PEDIGREE. If any of the dogs appearing in the ancestry are imported, the pedigree must include the Stud Book initials and the foreign registration number issued for the dog by the registry organization in the dog's country of birth. A dog will be ineligible for AKC registration if the pedigree issued by the U.S. registry discloses that one or more dogs was recorded with the registry on the basis of an affidavit.

5. Two color photographs, at least 3" by 4" in size, showing close-up front and side views of the dog in a standing position.

6. If there are more than two owners of the dog, or more than one breeder, please include a separate sheet which gives the name and address of each additional owner or breeder.

You'll note that they require photographs, but Fly is smooth-coated so no one would be the wiser. It sounds like I would have to first register Fly with ABCA (she is ISDS registered) and then AKC but it doesn't sound like they'd be very picky about it.

With the photograph requirement, the dogs pictured in the Beardie thread would probably be ineligible, but their smooth or rough littermates would squeak past with no problem at all.

Since both ISDS and ABCA have ROM programs, that's another avenue for impure blood to come in.

A geneticist recently introduced natural bob tails into Boxers by judicious use of Pembroke Welsh Corgis in his breeding program.

http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html
http://www.boxerunde..._98/bobtail.htm

Within a couple of generations the dogs are physically indistinguishable from normal Boxers and some have been accepted for registration in the UK. This caused a great hue and cry amongst Boxer folks who are sure that the introduction of Corgi characteristics is a big problem for Boxers, never mind that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the cross dogs and the regular Boxers if there were money riding on it. This is the way kennel club people think. So, I can't understand why there hasn't been more of an outcry against the mutt dogs that ABCA and ISDS happily register amongst those in the "dog fancy."

Then again, with AKC it's all about money, right? And we all know that a lot of those AKC-registered mill "purebreds" aren't purebred either.
Melanie, Solo the Red, Superfly, and Jett Girl
My homepage
My photos on Flickr
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, 2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.