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#1 16horses

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 05:05 PM

We paid a stud fee to breed our tri colored red dog, to a well bred, imported male, tri colored black/white/tan markings. We had three whites of 5 live pups in litter. All three have black facial masks. They are 8 weeks old. Now it appears that one of the three is deaf....genetically inherited. When I first talked with the owner of the stud dog, he stated his dog has thrown white pups in the past. If you know it throws genetically weaker pups why breed it? I don't know what to do. The white pups don't sell, and the deaf one is a special needs pup now. I feel he should refund the stud fee. Is that reasonable? There were two normal colored pups, one red and one black and white. The person who bought the red wants to use it for breeding. Now I am thinking that may not be a good idea. Should I call and suggest otherwise? :confused:

#2 Eileen Stein

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 07:05 PM

I'm sorry that one of your pups turned out to be deaf. It's very rare for white pups (other than merle x merle whites) to be deaf, but it's not unknown.

The stud is apparently white-factored, and would have produced white pups in the past when bred to a white-factored bitch. There is nothing "genetically weaker" about a white pup per se. I'm assuming none of the previous pups from this stud were deaf.

You are the breeder of this litter, and presumably you chose the stud. I think it was your responsibility to inform yourself about the considerations involved in breeding, including the likelihood that some white pups will result when a white-factored bitch is bred to a white-factored dog. It's usually fairly easy to tell if a dog is white-factored or not, and both your bitch and the stud dog must be white-factored to have produced white pups. So genetically your dog is just as much responsible for the white pups as the stud dog is. Bottom line: I can't see where this is the stud owner's fault, or why he should refund the stud fee.

Traditionally, there has been some degree of prejudice against white sheepdogs, but there are lots of people who don't share that prejudice, and therefore I would be surprised if you were unable to sell the white pups who are not deaf (assuming there are qualities in the sire and dam that would make their offspring desirable). As for the buyer of your red pup, I would strongly discourage the buyer of any pup from making plans to use it for breeding until the pup has proven itself as a working dog. If and when the pup has shown itself good enough to be bred, its owner should take care to choose a mate who is not white-factored if s/he wants to avoid white puppies.

#3 juliepoudrier

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 02:50 AM

Great post Eileen.

J.

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#4 kelpiegirl

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 02:55 AM

Just thought I'd mention- I like predominantly white bc's
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#5 16horses

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:48 PM

my point was that he did not disclose white pups in his past litters until we had 3 of them.... and felt he should, our dog has minimal white, neither are merles (very uncommon here)........

#6 J.E.S

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:30 PM

I have a smooth coat blk/wht white factored male. The litter he came out of had 3 almost all white pups and two traditionally marked pups all rough coats except ours. The white puppies went first. The breeder said the sire of this litter didn't show any white factoring so it was a surprise. The dam was white factored and was bred to this male because they thought he was not white factored. Both were proven working dogs out of working parents, bred by a knowledgable successful open handler.
Guess my point or points are, white puppies seem to be no less desireable than ones with more color and sometimes white factoring is hard to see. Still, I don't think the owner of the stud is responsible in this case. Its up to the breeder to check these things out. I used to have Weimaraners and of the two litters I bred we came up with several defects. I never thought to get my stud fee back because some of this might have come from the stud. It was a chance I took when breeding to that particular dog. Oh and my second litter was a different male and did not produce some of the defects.

#7 mosstheboss2000

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:40 PM

Just because your dog has minimal white does not mean that she is not white factored...

#8 fooshuman

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 04:47 PM

Great post Eileen.

I have to ask, what are your plans for the deaf pup? If you can't sell all the whites, what then? Personally i don't think you'll have a hardtime selling them. Even if it is to a sport/companion type home. I never cared what my BC looked like, *i don't think i'm alone here* as long as they dont look like a poodle! *shivers*
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#9 Deb Mickey

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 04:33 AM

Justa a genetic question - what are the chances the non deaf pups could pass on deafness if they were bred?

#10 jasper7777

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 11:35 PM

I'm not a breeder, so just my two cents, I think the owner of the sire should have disclosed that his dog had thrown all white puppies. Breeding is serious- any information like that could effect the health and should be disclosed. If he knew the sire had a white factor gene-- he should have told you-- and you could have double checked to see if your dog was white factor-- and thus avoided the white factor to white factor breeding. If the sire -- or your dog -- has white factor its ok to breed them but not to another white factor dog.


I'm not sure but maybe someone else on the board knows-- I thought a dog can carry white factor gene with out having all that much white- and that you have to look back and see if either of the parents, grandparents, or siblings had white factor to know. (but I'm not absolutely sure)

You should tell the person that wants a puppy for breeding that the parents had white factor -- that way she can be careful to breed to a dog that doesn't have white factor in its lineage.

All that said-- I love the white factor dogs--
I love the split faced dogs and the ones with a spot and one black ear-
You said your puppies had masks--
I'm would love to see them--Post some photos.

I've heard that some farmers in the hot sunny regions even look for dogs with white coats because of the sun.
I think the only thing you have to worry about is that the nose turns black-- because of sunburn.

#11 juliepoudrier

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 02:02 AM

Jasper,
The OP said that their dog had minimal white. No description was given of the stud. ISTM that if the stud were obviously white factored and my bitch was dark but had close relatives who were white factored, *I* would have thought twice about breeding the two. That is, you should know your bitch's relatives and should know something of what the stud has thrown in the past if you are going to make a good decision about whether the stud will cross well with the bitch. Just checking out the stud's other offspring would have "exposed" those white puppies--and it shouldn't be incumbent on the stud's owner to reveal white puppies when it's always a possibility when breeding white-factored dogs (that is, it doesn't sound like the stud's owner was keeping a secret but rather that the bitch's owner didn't do his/her homework). There's nothing to stop a bitch's owner from asking questions of the stud's owner. Having just bred a dog myself, I can tell you that I *did the research* and didn't expect anyone else to do it for me. I know of people who have deliberately bred two white factored dogs, and I when I have made comments to the effect that I wouldn't breed two white factored dogs for fear of getting white-headed, and possibly deaf, pups I have been told it's not a huge risk. But any time you (the generic you) choose to breed your bitch, you need to do the research and cover all possibilities--it's *your dog* you're putting at greatest risk (pregnancy and whelping isn't exactly a walk in the park).

Just my thoughts on the subject and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings, but coming from someone who has researched studs for *two years* before breeding my bitch and still not expecting any guarantees of perfect puppies, but hoping for the best.

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



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Julie Poudrier
New Kent, VA
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat, Twist, Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, and Birdie!
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#12 Caroline

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 04:43 AM

I also think that Eileen had a great post. I will add that you should spay/neuter those pups or have a contract so less informed people won't make similar mistakes.
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#13 16horses

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 05:15 AM

Just so you know, we don't breed "indiscriminately" we did research it, I obviously missed the boat on this one. We have had 3 litters in 12 years, so not like we are mass producing for the money. It has been suggested we put this pup down as they are a liability for biting, and we could be sued as breeders. There was no way to contact the breeders of our original dog, they have moved away, to research the white factoring. Around here, there are border collie X's with everything, and people still get several hundred dollars for those pups......walk through the dog pound and its border collie this and that. Many farmers don't spay/neuter because it costs money, just ask my neighbor with all of his creepy looking inbred cats......ewwwwwwwww. Owner of sire has had lots of positive feedback he tells me on the white dogs for herding....no I don't think he was hiding it, he didn't realize about the deafness has not encountered it. So maybe thats it for us, will spay her and be done!

#14 fooshuman

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 06:30 AM

It has been suggested we put this pup down as they are a liability for biting, and we could be sued as breeders.

May i suggest then you try to find a home for it before you kill the pup? There are plenty of people who would take on this deaf fella. Why not give him a chance to live a full and happy life before ending it? Have a neuter contract and a release of liability contract wrote up. Sign it and noterized it. Sorry I'm a big softy, I understand the reasoning behind putting it down. I disagree with that kind of reasoning when other ways still exist. I'd just have to try finding some other way before i came to that final conclusion.

Maybe even contact a rescue in your area? If it is a puppy someone is bound to fall under it's spell! I have and i didn't even see the bugger!

Just something about the under-dog that makes my heart fludder.
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#15 Eileen Stein

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 12:43 PM

<< I'm not sure but maybe someone else on the board knows-- I thought a dog can carry white factor gene with out having all that much white- and that you have to look back and see if either of the parents, grandparents, or siblings had white factor to know. >>

The amount of white a dog has isn't as significant an indicator of white factor as where the white is. Checking out the parents, siblings and offspring is probably the easiest way to be certain if there's any doubt after looking at the dog. Also, I believe an ophthalmologist can tell you definitively if a dog is white-factored, so if it's important to you you can ask during the dog's eye exam. There are many terrific white-factored dogs around, including the reigning national sheepdog champion (who is not eye-catchingly white but has white going up his stifle) and a bunch of previous champions. I wouldn't hesitate to breed a white-factored bitch to a white-factored dog, because the increased risk of deafness--if any--is so very minimal and I don't have any negative feeling toward white dogs, but I can understand those who feel differently. I just think the responsibility lies with the breeder to check out that which can be checked out, and this could.

Deb, I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question.

#16 lovesbc's

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:42 AM

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I just adore my white factored bc!!! He's better than most and I wouldn't trade him for anything!

#17 Leigha

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:43 PM

It's your responsibility to ask all questions before breeding plain and simple

#18 Kelliwic Border Collies

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 12:52 PM

<>

Eileen, how does the ophthalmologist (particularly) know definitively whether a dog is white-factored?

Thanks,
Megan

#19 Kelliwic Border Collies

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 12:53 PM

Also, I believe an ophthalmologist can tell you definitively if a dog is white-factored, so if it's important to you you can ask during the dog's eye exam.

Eileen, how does an ophthalmologist (particularly) know definitively whether a dog is white-factored? Are you saying there is something different about the eye structure of a white-factored dog? :confused:

Thanks,
Megan
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#20 Kelliwic Border Collies

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 01:52 PM

Just giving this a bump up, assume everyone is busy. Eileen or anyone who knows the answer...I'm definitely curious as to how an opthalmologist is able to determine whether a dog is white factored (or maybe my question is why an opth. moreso than another doctor, knowledgeable expert, or otherwise...?).

Or, if I mis-read what was meant and I'm being completely dense...please just let me know what was meant. I've been publicly dense before and am getting sort of used to it. :rolleyes: (Just look at my two posts above...tried to edit and somehow saved it twice...couldn't delete the first one...what a mess!)

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