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Concerned about over-vaccination??


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#61 AK dog doc

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 08:23 AM

And thank you yet again, Eileen - I appreciate the backup. Also thanks to all the others who have posted in support.... and I thank you not just for your support, but for making me feel I have not wasted my time here.

Debbie, if we're now going to talk about posting without bothering to find things out, allow me to point out that YOU have completely failed to "take the time to find these things out before you ream someone." You also have failed to condsider the evidence before you on a logical basis. Here are the facts:

1) You have no idea what is or is not my biggest "money maker". You also have no idea if my pay depends on the number of vaccines I give. As a point of logic, let's say I AM paid by production - the more I charge, the more I make. If so, it would be cutting my own financial throat to advocate vaccinations, since I'd make TONS more money treating sick distemper and parvo and Bordatella patients. TONS. And yet, here I am, telling people that vaccines work for a reason. How silly of me.

2) As a further point of logic, here I am telling this to people who A) are not my clients, so I will never see a dime of money from them, whether or not they vaccinate, and :rolleyes: I am POSTING THIS BIOLOGICAL INFORMATION FOR FREE AND ON MY OWN TIME. If money were my biggest concern, wouldn't I be out gouging someone and not wasting my personal time and (expensive-to-obtain) professional skills here for free?

3) Accusing me of lining my pockets at the expense of the health and well-being of my patients is beyond insulting. As Eileen, an attorney, has pointed out, it's defamatory, and you need to retract that statement. Moreover, it's irrational: if money were my biggest motivator, I'd be in human medicine where I could do EXACTLY the same work for four times as much money. (As it is significantly harder to get into vet school than med school - and I was admitted to vet school twice, having turned it down the first time to finish my master's degree - I assure you I'd have been capable of making this choice had I been financially motivated.) And I'll reiterate point number 2 here - if I was more concerned about money than health, information, and helping people and animals, I would NOT be wasting my time here, for free, to try to explain medicine and to try to help people (and possibly through that, animals.)

4) As pointed out by Eileen, you have failed to present your research. It's quite easy to make a wild statement about there being tons of research out there and I just don't want to believe it. However, since you are not now and have never been living inside my head, you have no idea what I think, or what I would think if I were presented with research that supports your point of view (and here I'm talking GOOD research, as crappy research abounds, but proves nothing.) Moreover, you did not bother to ask.

5) You posted "It's all good and well that people only give them every three years because the vet said it's okay...but do they know why they are doing so (my guess is YOU do but I don't get that feeling about everyone)? Are they doing it because "research says vaccines last x amount of years" or because they have educated themselves about the horrible, senseless diseases we are giving our dogs by vaccinating them so much?" Whether you intended it or not, that is insulting - you state that you think maybe this one person understands the issue, but you feel no one else (perhaps with the exception of yourself), does. You also say that having read other posts, you discovered that everyone went ahead and got vaccines anyway, including the "useless and dangerous bordatella vaccine!" So now you have accused people (and, by implication, their vets) of foolishly endangering their dogs, and done so in a tone of incredulity. Subsequently you have implied, via your attack on me, that in the case of the vets this was done with money as the motive. Do you not see how that might be insulting? Really?

6) As Eileen points out, no one (including me) has ever suggested that you don't have the right to make your own choices or the right to your own opinion. What I said was that I wanted for you to stop trying to get OTHER people to make the same choice YOU did, particularly by spurious means, and I wanted you to stop insulting (whether overtly or covertly, and whether intentionally or by accident) those people who DID choose differently than you. You are not qualified to give medical advice. If you want to present another side of an argument, fine, have at it - let's see what you have to say and let's assess the information for accuracy and quality. By all means, start any discussion you like with any member of this board, no matter how "important" they might be. FWIW, I don't think of myself as an "important" member of this board if by that you mean one that someone can't take issue with. I am, however, in posession of a medical education and more than a decade of experience in the trenches of medicine. I'm not willing to stand by while pseudoscience is presented as fact, to the possible harm of unknown numbers of animals. Sorry. Also, if you present information that is incorrect, particularly in the field of medicine, why would you expect me not to correct it or take issue with it? And why would you take the position (which it at least appears that you have) that being corrected for wrong information is the same as "I'm not allowed to start a discussion with this board member since they might disagree"? The purpose of the Boards is to discuss. However, you should be prepared that other people might not agree with you, and that if they have more or better information or experience than you, they may feel inclined to back up their disagreement with fact.

7) Several people on the Boards have posted about older (non-puppy) dogs who got parvo or other preventable diseases both before and since your posts. When I made reference to unvaccinated animals who are vulnerable to disease, that was not an assumption that you didn't vaccinate your dogs as puppies. That was a reference to the fact that BOTH dogs and puppies can be vulnerable to preventable diseases, if not protected by vaccine. What constitutes "protection" in an individual animal will vary.

8) Until you come to work with me and see how I practice, don't assume I would "leave anything out" - for financial or other reasons (and again, I refer you to Eileen's comments about defamation.) I may leave out explanations that YOU feel are necessary, if *I* feel they are spurious (and I would feel this based on my education, my continuing education, and my experience.) If someone came and asked me why their dog had gotten pneumonia, I'm not going to include night vapours in the list of possibilities, since I think that's a false reason. If YOU think it's a correct reason (and this is just an example, I'm not saying you do) then you might accuse me of leaving it out - but since I'm the one with the medical education I'll reserve the right to make that decision for myself, thanks.

At any rate, Eileen, please feel free to edit or ask me to edit this post, if you feel I've been unjust or unduly harsh. I admit it's galling to have to field this sort of accusation and I may have been more aggressive in my response than is typical for me. If I've overstepped the bounds of what it acceptable or appropriate, I bow to your authority and will correct myself as necessary and appropriate.
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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#62 SoloRiver

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 08:57 AM

Thanks AK. It's nice to see someone present information in a clear and logical manner, and to share freely of her own time and education on a topic that interests many of us.
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#63 AK dog doc

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 09:13 AM

Thank you, Melanie - and I'll return the compliment, having many times benefitted from your own clear, logical, thorough, well-informed and extremely well-thought-out posts. (Not to mention that you can write like nobody's biz! :rolleyes: ALWAYS a pleasure to read.)
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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#64 juliepoudrier

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 09:14 AM

Ditto to what Melanie said. It always amazes me when someone comes here and accuses the rest of us of being uneducated boobs blindly following outdated medical advice. FWIW, many of us are highly educated, some in science fields, and speaking for myself I can say that I enjoy learning new things. But I won't take hearsay as gospel, so if you're going to make blanket statements regarding scientific topics, it's only smart to be prepared to point us in the direction of the good scientific studies that support your claims. (It's sort of like coming here and proclaiming that a raw diet cures all diseases--some of us just aren't going to believe it without some sort of credible proof.)

At any rate, *I* don't think you were unnessecarily harsh AK Dog Doc, and the kind of flaming Debbie** has done to you would get her a lot worse in many venues.

If I haven't said so lately, let me say thank you for all the time and effort you put in to educating people on this forum. I greatly appreciate it!

**Just to clarify, as several Debbies have posted here, that I am referring to Debbie aka RoughMuttGang.

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#65 AK dog doc

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 09:32 AM

Well, and thank you, too, Julie. You've never given me to think that you're anything but appreciative, and for my part it is deeply gratifying (and readily apparent) that you DO have an interest in learning and are more than capable of making good decisions based on assmiliation of information and not just 'taking the party line'. Plus I'm glad you don't think I'm being unreasonable... it's not always easy to know how one is coming across, so I appreciate the reality check.
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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#66 Sue R

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 09:37 AM

I must add my appreciation for all the time and effort AK dog doc has contributed in offering helpful and educational posts to many threads, particularly those dealing with health issues.

There are a number of dogs who have directly benefited from her expertise on these boards, when their owners and veterinarians were stumped by a puzzling malady.

We consider our veterinarians to be an indispensable resource in helping maintain our dogs as healthy members of our family and farm. We often don't give veterinarians the credit and support they deserve.
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#67 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 10:39 AM

I am so glad you know so much about me without ever having talked to me or met me, AK dog doc.

I've got better things to do than waste my time showing you research which you claim to have already seen and do not accept. How on earth do you have the time to run a successful practice when you are on here so much? Don't bother answering as I won't be back to read your reply.

Eileen, please remove my username from this message board (I am sure you've been dying to hear me say that). I've had my obligatory 24 hr "cool down" period and need no longer to know that this is not a place where I want to spend my time. There are only a certain few people who are welcome to voice their opinions here and I am certainly not one of them. Whether or not people agree with me is beside the point here--no one needs to have a book-long post(s) written DIRECTLY to them when the entire context of said post is completely derogatory.

To those who read, learn and don't have the guts to reply (you all know that they exist, many times in greater numbers than reg'd users)...I don't blame you!!

#68 Black Watch Debatable

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:28 AM

Well, here's the crux of the problem:

I've got better things to do than waste my time showing you research

RuffMuttGang, you haven't shown us any research. This is research. You gave us a few essays, and we'd like to see some science.

AK dog doc wrote:

The fact of it is, there will always be people who fail to believe the evidence set before them, and who will listen to the neighbor before the feedstore guy, the feedstore guy before the farrier, the farrier before the vet.

Yep. They're the same folks who don't know PubMed or Google Scholar from their elbow, yet they "know" that vets are just the brainwashed pawns of pharmaceutical companies :rolleyes:

For the record, my holistic vet doesn't administer vaccinations. And yet, mirabile dictu, she recommends a vaccination protocol for puppies, as well as titers (and in some cases vaccinations) for adult dogs. She does this because she is knowledgeable, ethical and has decades of experience as a veterinarian. She and my traditional vet (the dogs see both) work together to ensure that my crew gets the best possible health care.

Sue R wrote:

I must add my appreciation for all the time and effort AK dog doc has contributed in offering helpful and educational posts to many threads, particularly those dealing with health issues.

Amen. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

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#69 Eileen Stein

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:52 AM

<< I've got better things to do than waste my time showing you research which you claim to have already seen and do not accept. >>

If this is a subject you care about deeply (as apparently it is), and if you have research to show to us, why wouldn't you show it?

<< Eileen, please remove my username from this message board {I am sure you've been dying to hear me say that}. >>

Why on earth would you think that? You are very welcome to post here (except for personal attacks), but when I or others disagree with you, we will say so. That's the point of a discussion board, and since you ended your first post on this subject with "Alright, fire away!" that is what you must have expected.

<< I've had my obligatory 24 hr "cool down" period and need no longer to know that this is not a place where I want to spend my time. >>

The cool-down period is a week, which is just as well since it's pretty clear you haven't cooled down yet. There's certainly no requirement that you spend any time here against your will. But based on my impression of you from your posts prior to this thread, I honestly believe you will want to apologize to AK dog doc when you have had time to cool down.

<< There are only a certain few people who are welcome to voice their opinions here and I am certainly not one of them. >>

Again, you are welcome to voice your opinions, and others are welcome to take issue with them. If you voice your opinions without personal attacks on someone who does not deserve them (thank you for editing your defamatory post, BTW), I think you would have a better chance of attracting support.

#70 AK dog doc

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:59 AM

Well, I'll answer anyway.

The remarks made in my first post of 5/29 were directed at the information you presented in your posts, not at you personally, with the sole exception of the remark that I was hoping to get you to recognize that there is a diff between fact and impression (etc) and to stop trying to get other people to do as you have chosen to do, based on faulty information. Clearly you FELT personally attacked, despite the fact that what I took issue with was the misinformation in the post you quoted (as I believe would be clear if you read the post for content, rather than just being offended by the fact that your 'authority' was called into question.) Evidently you then felt justified in making what WAS a personal attack against me.

My second post of 5/29 was addressed at defending myself after your personal attack, and presenting the facts in another format (hopefully a logical one) so that there would then be no misunderstanding about what my position is and the facts of the situation are. I'm sorry if you feel ill-used when someone defends themselves against your agressive actions. Bear in mind that YOU were the one who initiated personal attack in this thread, and I believe we have the right to defend ourselves against attacks here.

Nowhere in this have I claimed to "know so much about you" - my posts have been directed, as stated, against the misinformation given (first) and toward laying out the facts about myself, not you, in the context of your attack on me (second). Nowhere in here have I said anything that I considered or intended to be derogatory (despite the fact that YOU at least appear to have intentionally been derogatory) - and evidently I am not alone in this opinion (based on what other posters have written). If we're looking for derogatory, I believe you have supplied the only examples (as in your remarks to Eileen, the Boards and Board members in general, and myself in specific, which seem to me to be gratuitously snide and rather immature.) PLEASE NOTE: This is me saying "I think this", not "You ARE this." I am stating my opinion that you have given offense, whether or not you intended to. If you did not intend to give offense, the correct course of action is to apologise. If you DID intend to give offense, then you have just proven me correct.

As for having better things to do than waste your time directing me (and others) to legit research - again, it's easy to SAY you have such research. Prove it. That's what science is about. And it seems mighty weak as an argument, leading me (and perhaps others) to specuate that you don't HAVE a solid scientific foundation for this, and are using the "I wouldn't waste my time" argument as a misdirector to draw attention away from this fact. Perhaps that's the reason behind the personal attacks as well. No idea what your agenda is here.

At any rate, whether or not you read this, the bottom line is that in a forum such as this it is unreasonable to turn up, make some wild (and incorrect) statements about medicine, unsupported by legitimate science, and then expect them to pass unchallenged. It is also, IMO, unreasonable to expect to be able to make personal attacks without being corrected for them. If my unwillingness to lie down meekly and let you make whatever personal attack you wish against me makes me a bad, evil person, then so be it. And for the third time - I am willing to be corrected if I am overstepping my bounds or misbehaving here. I await the judgement of the Boards, should I have earned a correction.

Oh, yeah - thanks, Sue and Luisa! That was nice of you to say! And yet again, Eileen, you are my hero.
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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http://vetontheedge.blogspot.com

#71 Dixie_Girl

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 12:48 PM

When I was 19 I took in a 6 mo. pound puppy. He was GS/mix. A month after I got him, he started getting sick. His nose was running, he had a fever, was not playful, loosing interest in food. I took him to the vet and they said he had distemper. That I should let them put him down. At 19 I ruled the world and believed he could survive. I took him home and "doctored" him. I fed him concentrated home made broth. I kept his nose clear of the very thick mucus that came. I gave him asprin, I put him in the bathroom with the shower on hot, for the steam. I sat up at night with him. Oh, yeah, I had a 10mo baby too! He survived. When I found out it could have been prevented with a shot, I swore I would never let a dog go though this again. Say what ever about vaccines you want. But if my animal gets sick or dies because I was trying to HELP it, is easier to live with than for one to die because I did nothing. Titers interrests me and am planning to speak with my vet about it as my guys are due now for vaccines. Jackson is done with puppy shots so now is a good time.

AK dog doc, I think you are awesome. I have no idea what kind of vet you are, but I know what kind of person you are. You care and you are always willing to give out info. You never tell someone their vet is full of poop and you are right. But you give them info to help them decide if their vet is full of poop. I love reading the info you give and appreciate it! Thank you!

P.S. Lest anyone misconstue the statement of what kind of vet she is, it is not meant derogetory. Just that I have never taken an animal to her. But she could always come down here and give my guys the once over, then I would know! :rolleyes:
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#72 Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 03:14 PM

OT-I read page 2 to catch up on the discussion, caught the remark to "Debbie" and thought 'now what did I say?' I knew I was tired from the last few weeks of dog-and-pony shows, but Gee-Whiz!!

Thanks Julie for the Debbie-Clarifications!!

AK Dog Doc, as usual, the voice of intelligent reason--you rock! Eileen too.

#73 Kyrasmom

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:36 PM

Originally posted by TheRuffMuttGang:
To those who read, learn and don't have the guts to reply (you all know that they exist, many times in greater numbers than reg'd users)...I don't blame you!!

As one who has very diverse opinions on many things from others on this particular board, what you've said, in my opinion, is unfair..especially as you pack up your bags to leave. I've been on the opposite side of opinion various times but all in all, that is where I may learn something...or maybe enlighten someone. (Stop snickering everyone). :rolleyes:

I think that there are many bright people on this board and couple that with an intense love of breed/dogs, it's bound to get volatile quick, especially when it comes to the ultimate well being of our animals. We all want to do right by them, we're all looking for a way to keep them with us as long as possible.

I love the internet, I've learned so much, but I must confess that it's so easy to be more judgmental, more confrontational, more volatile, simply because there is no face to face. I always think that if we were all face to face, we would most likely keep our opinions, but feelings would most likely be spared.

I personally did not see anything accusatory in AK Dog Doc's posts, given her background, I would expect no less from a medical person. If anything, she should be applauded for coming through so often with insight that another vet may very well prefer to keep quiet about. Not too many professionals will go online, heck, some vets will barely talk to you on the phone. But the good ones make times for you and that should never be taken for granted, nor should their dedication.

There is never going to be a perfect solution but let's at least give credit where credit is due, to owners who are dedicated enough to educate themselves and to vets who support and help them to the best of their ability.

Maria

#74 AK dog doc

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 08:20 PM

Thanks! I'm glad not EVERYONE wishes I'd just shut the *%(&# up! :rolleyes: :D
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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