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#1 Jodi

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 05:21 AM

As there have been many discussions on this board about Jon Katz, I thought this might have been of interest to some people here.

E-mail to Jon Katz with his responses

(Crossposted with permission from the author.)

I think "True Colors" sums it up quite well.

Jodi

#2 Dixie_Girl

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 07:46 AM

WOW!
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#3 Kat's Dogs

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:37 AM

The thing I keep thinking about is poor Orson. What would he have turned out like if one of us had gotten him instead? Most likely a great dog.
In his new book (Katz on Dogs) he states that Orson has come as far in his training as he can go because of his past, and he is still a mess.
Poor dog. TRaining stopped because that is "as good as it is going to get". :rolleyes: (not that it was real "training rehab" in the first place)

Then the big question is, why did he get three MORE dogs after Orson (two of them Border Collies)??

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#4 Kyrasmom

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:
Then the big question is, why did he get three MORE dogs after Orson (two of them Border Collies)??

Uug.

Because it's all about him and has nothing to do with the dogs. Everytime I'm reminded that he has actually made money on these books and is now making a film...I actually feel shock that so many people could enjoy such ego driven drivel.

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#5 AK dog doc

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 12:39 PM

I'm just dreading what the film will do to the BC as a breed. I'd like to add my voice to those who decry his work, but that would mean I'd have to go read his book, and I'm not sure I could stand it. I won't buy it, but if I got it from a library, I might feel inclined to shred it page by page, and I think that's a no-no on library books. What a nasty jerk he was in his replies, too. Just makes me want all the more to go after him... but I just can't face the reading.
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#6 Willikers

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 01:48 PM

I hope Border Collie Rescue pickets the premieres of this movie. Count me in. When is the release date? I can't stand the thought of what this is going to do to rescue. Everybody make some extra room, because the canine refugees are coming.

#7 Pipedream Farm

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 01:27 AM

Here is what he was doing before dogs....

Being Jon Katz

It seems to me he enjoys provoking response.

I love this quote...

"Katz comes blazing in without any understanding of ... shared references, and makes statements which people find embarrassingly naive. [It's]like you were discussing the finer points of characterization in Romeo and Juliet in the bar and Katz would come over and say 'Don't you think their suicides were so tragic?'" writes poster Eddie Edwards in an e-mail.

Mark

BTW Picketing the movie, if it has any affect, may only make more people want to see it. Controversy and media coverage of the negative reaction to a movie only makes people curious.
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#8 Valhalla

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 03:55 AM

Maybe writing to Jeff Bridges would be a good idea??
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#9 GOOSEDOGS

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 05:10 AM

CHRISTINE, I SUGGESTED THAT TO AMELIA. ALSO TO INVITE HIM TO THE FINALS AS HE'S PRETTY CLOSE!
JOAN

#10 juliepoudrier

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:38 AM

Aw, y'all are just looking for an excuse to write to Jeff Bridges... LOL! :rolleyes:

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#11 Mayor_McCheese

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 07:47 AM

I'm a little surprised but the negativity about Katz on these boards. While I don't agree with all of training habits and all of the decisions that he makes when it comes to his dogs, I find myself agreeing with about 50% of what he writes.

Katz has admitted to making mistakes with Orson and has also admitted that he had to learn to be a better trainer. I don't know a whole lot about borders but I never finished one of his books and thought, Let me get a border collie and begin training it to herd. Katz also suggests that BC's are not for everyone and that they have to be properly stimulated and working in order to be fulfilled.

Again, I'm not a huge supporter of Jon but I have enjoyed his books in the past. I'm not a robot, I'm going to read his book and immediatly get a border collie and wonder why its not acting like he suggests. It's just interesting to me that everyone on this board seems to hate him so.

#12 GOOSEDOGS

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 09:40 AM

Julie, OK I'm Busted!

#13 Rebecca, Irena Farm

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 09:50 AM

That is a beautiful quote, Mark. I'm just in denial over the movie. I'll have to actually check out the rest of his books from the library so I can justly critique, but I heard plenty when he was doing the rounds to promote his dog training book - not to mention his wonderful rescue-slamming syndicated articles. Bleah.
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#14 muddy bob

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 09:55 AM

He does say to Amelia that he never claimed to be a dog expert. Yet didn't I read on the boards that he took calls from people with "dog trouble" on an NPR show? I did make the effort to e-mail the man and politely point out his hypocrisy.
IMO, the reason people here dislike him so is that he, as a popular voice in the media and pop culture bears a responsibility to "get it right" but he does not seem to even acknowlege this. He just wants to pursue whatever strikes his fancy with no regards to the consequences. I'm certain more border collies will be bred as a result of this stupid movie and bought by people that disregard the warnings of how inappropiate a choice they can be. Many of course will end up in shelters. Willikers was NOT joking when she said everybody better make room for the refugees.

In the end it does seem to come down to his ego and pocketbook. I doubt he will ever get it. If he could be reached he already would have turned around.

I do however, like some of the stances he has taken on bullying in the schools. I feel bad for those kids that feel abandoned by him.

muddy

#15 Rebecca, Irena Farm

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 10:36 AM

Yet didn't I read on the boards that he took calls from people with "dog trouble" on an NPR show?

I heard him on at least three different talk shows (yup, I listen to a lot of talk radio . . ). The NPR show was Dianne, um, whats her name?
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#16 muddy bob

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 10:54 AM

I listen a lot too. But out here Diane Riehm(sp) is on way past my bedtime.

muddy

#17 Willikers

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 11:43 AM

Perhaps picketing is the wrong word. I do think that Border Collie Rescue, as a presence on site at theaters as folks come out the door lusting after a brilliant border collie of their very own, could make use of a teachable moment. It might bring more attention to the film, but I have a feeling that the attention will come whether we are there to educate or not-I think this is going to be a popular film. I'd rather get our perspective out there and make the media work for our purposes too. So if by our efforts we inadvertently bring him more attention, at least rescue and BC education would get SOME notice and air time, which is more than we have now.

Sigh. I just have this crazy idea that if possible, I'd like to influence the course of events rather than sit helplessly by as "Babe" happens all over again. Maybe my naivete is showing.

Well, at least I can apply for a kennel permit!

#18 AK dog doc

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 05:37 PM

Mayor_McCheese, I guess I'm not clear on why you're surprised at the general unfavorable impresion "we" (the Boards as a general population) hold regarding Mr. Katz. There are a number of links to previous discussions, if you use the "search" function and put in "Jon Katz" - I think the main forum in which these threads appear is the General section, although I think there might be one under the "herding" section. I think it's fairly clear in those threads what our general objections are. He dispenses opinion as if it were fact and incorrect information as if it were true, for starters. He's espoused a number of bad ideas for training BCs as if they were good ones, some of which shoot right on by being bad training methods and head directly into being dangerous or life-threatening for the dog. And, to top it off, he presents medical/biological information without any qualifications whatsoever to do so, and which is, moreover, incorrect.

It's great that you are not inclined to follow his faulty advice or to decide to do as he has done - but not everyone is able to see the giant amount of hogwash in which some of his work wallows. As pointed out repeatedly in various threads, having his words in print lends them a certain legitimacy, and some people, out of ignorance of their own, will take the word of this alleged and self-promoted "expert" as gospel, giving it (because of its presentation in print, and on respected public venues such as NPR) the weight of an authority which is richly undeserved. Some of what he writes (and says) is potentially dangerous and harmful to dogs and dog owners - not to mention just flat-out incorrect (as in the ludicrous statement that "dogs only live about 8 years" and the potentially harmful implication that if something should go wrong with your older dog, well, it's about to die anyway, so why bother trying to help it?)

I believe that you, as a discerning reader, will be able to see why we have a less-than-glowing regard for Mr Katz if you read the other threads regarding his work, and the implications it holds for BCs present and future, both as individuals and as a breed.
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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#19 Black Watch Debatable

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:56 PM

AK dog doc wrote:

[Katz]dispenses opinion as if it were fact and incorrect information as if it were true, for starters. He's espoused a number of bad ideas for training BCs as if they were good ones, some of which shoot right on by being bad training methods and head directly into being dangerous or life-threatening for the dog. And, to top it off, he presents medical/biological information without any qualifications whatsoever to do so, and which is, moreover, incorrect.

Exactly.

When I think of the harm this shameless self-promoter has inflicted (and continues to inflict) on the working border collie,
I could spit ink.

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#20 PennyT

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 01:19 AM

What I dislike most about Katz's recent book is the calculated hypocrisy. Early on to appeal to hardnosed, Katz writes at length about how he doesn't believe dogs have souls. In fact, he seems to go out of his way to inject that into a mediocre training manual. Then in the final chapter to appeal to the warm fuzzy set of dog owners, he says that owning a dog is the "journey of two souls."

Bedlam Farm (or is it a Dog Year?) has a funny scene or two. I wondered on first reading it several years ago whether Devon/Orson had been taught to ride on the roof of a moving minivan before Katz ever got the dog...maybe for one of those used car commercials with live animals. If so, it's ironic that another dog will be taught to do so for a movie.

Another idle question: Rose's breeding. Off the top of my head, I can't remember who bred Orson/Devon and Homer that pathetic other border collie Katz unloaded. Anyway, the particular breeder does not produce dogs from what Katz describes as "herding" lines, so who bred Rose? Katz says he spent hours on the phone with Orson/Devon's breeder before getting Rose. He doesn't come right out and say who bred Rose.

Also, in terms of hypocrisy and doublethink, it staggers the imagination that Katz could get dogs like Orson/Devon and Homer from one person, then when he wanted a working dog, go to the same person who produced the first two and later in print encourage readers to find a good breeder. In so far as I was able to discover when I researched before writing a review of Katz On Dogs, the breeder currently makes no claims supported by any evidence about producing solidly bred working border collies. She just makes an unsupported claim about breeding for herding...exactly the kind of breeder anyone with a farm and sheep who is looking for a working dog should avoid.

Penny


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