Jump to content
BC Boards

Clarification on crate use


Recommended Posts

Hello.

 

I have never used a crate before, but had to start when our new rescue was getting really obsessed with windows. Searching the web has provided conflicting advice about how and when to use the crate so that it is constructive, and not a scary and/or cruel thing. One thing that I have gleaned from this forum, is that it should not be used as punishment, but to "settle" a dog or redirect their attention. Somehow that doesn't completely settle the issue in my head. I watched an old sheepdog herding video in which an old english sheep farmer (is that what you call them?) explained that he puts his dogs in kennels after a training session so that they spend some time thinking over their lesson, and said that the result was faster learning. Can someone explain, or direct me to a good explanation of crate use for behavioral issues and for training?

 

For some background - My ~2yo BC Lily has only been with us for about 3 weeks now. She has calmed down quite a bit, but still has times when she gets too amped up and won't leave my other dog alone, or will start trying to tear up a rug if nobody plays with her (after initially "warning" us by squeaking her toy a while before getting destructive). She will still occasionally pee on the carpet (today, right after coming inside from a pee-break outside, on a leash to keep her from jumping the fence after squirrels). And for some reason defecated on the carpet the night before last, while I slept, though I took her out late at night. Her other training is progressing, slowly, but still only including the basics - sit, lie down, come, stay, touch, leave it. You can read a lot more about her and her issues here: Lily's progress

 

Thanks very much for any help.


Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not have a link, but for me the key is to think of it as management - not active teaching (training) or punishment. That is to say, you are using it to prevent the dog from getting into trouble and/or to stop them practicing undesirable behavior making them habits.


Punishment means you want hte dog to learn 'if I do bad things I go in the box so I won't do bad things'. You're not going for that. you're going for is 'can't do bad things while in the crate so I will use this to keep her driving everyone nuts and getting her face torn off (or whatever) while I teach her more appropriate things'


Does that make more sense to you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is helpful, as it helps me to identify the hangup that I am having in grasping this. Your distinction seems more like a state of mind in the person than a distinction in operation that can be perceived by the dog, no?

 

If I'm Lily, and I am looking for fun, start bothering Zorro, and then I'm lead off to the crate (calmly, without being scolded). Then, does it matter to her whether I am thinking of this as punishment or to prevent something worse coming next?

 

What about when she is actually misbehaving, e.g., trying to tear up the window shudders to see what's outside, and won't listen to us trying to get her away. If I take her to the crate, then that's stopping the behavior, but she doesn't want to go to the crate, so that's probably perceived as punishment, right?

 

Given these two examples, is the only distinction in practice whether she is scolded BEFORE being lead off to the crate? And, if I call the latter example "punishment" while the former is "settling," does she really know the difference?

 

How is house-training and obedience training considered with use of the crate, if at all? These aren't philosophical questions, not on purpose anyway, I really want to get this right. I've never been a fan of crates, but now I am trying something new with Lily to try to maximize her happiness and maintain the order in the house that the rest of us depend on.

 

 

Thanks so much for the comment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I use the crate most for a new or young dog is when I can't actively be watching the dog to make sure they don't do something I really don't want them practicing doing. In a situation like that, it really doesn't have anything to do with your feelings at the time. You're just putting the dog out of harm's way so that they don't pee on the floor when you're not looking, chewing your slippers when you're not watching, pestering the other dog or chasing the cat when you're paying attention.

 

When you're able to be watching the dog, able to redirect unwanted behaviors with something more desirable, then the dog can be out, because it's an opportunity for a teachable moment instead of a chance for the dog to practice a self-rewarding behavior that's actually something you don't want the dog to be doing.

 

If the dog persists in engaging in the undesirable behavior when you've redirected or given alternative cues that prevent the behavior from continuing (e.g. a "go to your mat" cue to interrupt pestering Zorro), then I might lead the dog to its crate using a cheerful voice and rewarding the dog for going in, even if she needs a little nudge to help get in. I'd probably give the dog a chewie or a frozen stuffed Kong when she goes in the crate, too. With all the positive stuff associated with going into the crate and having crate time, it's not a punishment.

 

ETA: I much prefer redirection followed by positive reinforcement to scolding. Scolding may stop the behavior in the moment, but it won't teach Lily what to do instead of what she was doing that you didn't like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Housetraining with a crate is mostly prevention of unwanted behaviors (eliminating indoors) while training/rewarding desired behavior (going outside). I've never done any other 'obedience' training with a crate. My dogs are crate trained, but I don't use them as part of training other behaviors.


As for the rest - Scolding does make a difference to the dog. If they're being scolded and then crated, they're going to learn to dread the crate. It's like feeding lots of treats around an activity to make a positive association, only negative. If you just lead the dog to a crate, who is already comfortable with a crate, gets fed in a crate, and is happy to be in the crate, they're going to see it as a change in location or activity. Yes, even if you're asking them to stop doing a fun thing. If you add a chew or special treat they ONLY have in the crate, then even more so. If they stay awake. Frankly dogs being truly wild, even adults (though especially puppies) are often exhausted, overstimulated, over aroused, and don't know how to relax. So they get a quiet space, they get something to put their mouth on, they get MILDLY bored with options off the table and then they sleep like the dead for 4 hours.

 

And really, that's the key. My dogs like their crates. They no more see being crated as punishing than they see being sent out of the kitchen and go play in the living room because I'm cooking punishment.

 

And related to Gentle Lake - No, I don't scold much at all. If I have to stop something, I just ask for some other behavior they do know (like sit, or down, or come here) give them a small reward and then quietly crate them with said special chew. Scolding stops behavior and that can be a short term and special goal but generally I'm around developing behaviors I DO want. Which means, yeah, mind set, but really influences practical things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All our dogs are crate-trained. Dogs love to have their own private space (think DEN) and as was mentioned above, they can relax in there and not worry about anything. Of course, we train the crate as early as possible, but we also feed our dogs in their crates, which reinforces the 'happy place' understanding.

 

Crate training is also for Lily's safety. What if an emergency arose and she had to be crated for a period of time, possibly by strangers? If she's already comfortable there, then that's one less issue for her to deal with.

 

Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

Amy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dogs like their crates too, and will often choose to sleep in them at night. I just leave them with the doors open so they can use them whenever they want, and there's often a dog in a crate at different times throughout the day. The only time I ever actually need to use a crate now is if I have to leave the house and there are thunderstorms for the thunder-phobic one, or for a few minutes if someone's coming into the house for the over-the-top greeter till she can manage to get control of herself. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's an interesting idea, crating when people first arrive. I'll try that with Lily, it might help with her overexcitement-to-fear issue (discussed here).

 

Last night Lily was in her crate almost all night to prevent accidents. She has, however, already become accustomed to sleeping in the bed and was reluctant to get anywhere near the crate. So, we had to do some trick training, and she and my other dog got to learn "get in there" and "come on out." Zorro was excited about it, I think because he's assuming there must be something cool in that crate since Lily is in there sometimes and he can't get in. The use of treats, and demonstrating a few times that I will actually bring her out again, I think went a long way. Around 4am, I'm told, she was pawing at the crate door. My wife got up and took Lily out, she did her business, and Lily got a couple more treats when she went back in. Feeling good about how that all went.

 

 

thanks so much for the comments, they are very helpful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have one crate downstairs, for the puppy. The rest are in our bedroom, or dining room, though mostly used only infrequently now. Anyway, when the bigger dogs start getting rough, the littlest dog actually goes into the single crate downstairs and pulls the door shut behind her with a paw. Definitely her safe (from being trampled) space!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great responses above. Pretty much what I do also. And your wife had exactly the correct instincts at the 4 am pee break.

 

With regard to your OP and your mention of peeing and defecating in the house after being outside: some border collies can be so focused on playing, or digging, or watching that squirrel, or waiting to get in the car if they think you are going for a drive, or .......... (name a distraction)...... that they will 'hold it'. And you may not notice that they didn't do their business. Then, they come inside and may have an accident. Because I have one boy that sometimes won't pee if he thinks he is going to miss out on something, I have to watch him very carefully to make sure that he does pee. If I see that he is hyperfocused on something and hasn't peed, I will stop what I am doing, walk him over to a tree or long grass, and give him his pee command. This is something that happens infrequently, but I still have to watch out for it. 90% of the time, he goes out and pees almost immediately. The rest of the time, I may have to remind him to pee if he gets too busy to think about it. There there were those 2 times in the last year when he was busy, and I wasn't paying attention, and brought him inside before he had a chance to pee (even though we were outside for about 20-30 minutes). About 30 or 60 minutes later, I hear some small whines from him but do not put 2 and 2 together. Another 10-15 minutes pass, and he lifts his leg (luckily he was on the tile in the kitchen and not a rug) and just lets go. I realize my mistake so I didn't scold him (he is very well house-broken so this event was an anomaly). I just calmly got a roll of paper towels and kept tearing them off and putting them on the puddle while he and I stared into each other's eyes. Actually, it was pretty funny because he kept streaming for at least 60 seconds (or more), and I just kept layering on the paper towels. I mean, what else was there to do?

 

So after that long story, just make sure that Lily really has done her business outside - or she might have the occasional accident inside. [You probably do watch her, but just thought I would mention it.] Also, dogs just sometimes have upset stomachs or other digestive or bladder-related ailments that can cause an accident or two (just like humans).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...