Jump to content


Photo

Herding ?


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 ArtTalKat

ArtTalKat

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 46 posts

Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:35 AM

So I think my BC pup has a ton of great instinct for herding, so of course I wanted to see him on sheep. I've never really been herding before, and honestly I was just super excited to go and try it, hopefully get into classes if he did well in the instinct test and compete in competitions. I went to a place around here that was raved about by multiple people I knew and worked with. I looked at video's online of the place and read their information and all seemed well. After paying, I sat to watch and wait my turn with the dogs in the car, but after watching I did not like what I saw in any way. I'm not squemish about some tougher methods, though I don't use them. I think what I saw went far beyond training into the realm of abuse.

 

But that's not really the point, It's not about this place, it's about the methods. Herding training or instinct testing, what are the general methods? What I mean to ask, is this method something I'm going to see everywhere? Is that how's it's done in the sheep herding world? Or is it like other training, some do it, but other's use other methods? I'm not asking if there are multiple ways of doing it, there always is lol. I'm asking, as a general rule, which is the majority when it comes to sheep training?

 

I guess mostly I'm super dissappointed and am hoping these methods are not the norm, and that I'll have a good chance of finding a new place. I'm a bit scared off herding classes at the moment, I don't want my dog beaten for the sake of herding classes. So I guess more than anything, I'm hoping for reassurance that there are more positive methods out there?

 

Thanks!



#2 RoseAmy

RoseAmy

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 304 posts

Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:56 AM

Well it's hard to reply until we know exactly what was being done..If you have a video or can explain what was happening that you didn't like we may be able to help.



#3 Sue R

Sue R

    Bark less, wag more

  • Registered Users
  • 11,083 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bruceton Mills WV
  • Interests:Stockdogs, horses, chocolate

Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:19 AM

What Roseamy said is precisely what my first thought was - it's hard to answer a question that is put in such general terms. 

 

Just about everyone I know who is a trainer/handler doesn't use what I would consider abusive methods in any way but I know there are those who do.  I would never respect someone who "beats" a dog but I know there are people who do.  Some people use all sorts of "tools" to train, from whips to shock collars, but good trainers don't use anything more than a stock stick (it's used as an extension of your arm) or maybe a boogie bag (a bag on a stock stick) or rattle paddle (both of these make noise and a bit more impression than a stock stick and are safe), the livestock, their voice, and their body.  It's how they utilize all these things together with their knowledge of dogs and stock that determines whether they are a good trainer or not. 

 

There are some "successful" trainers that use methods that most people would not condone.  And there are also people who put themselves out there as trainers who are simply not very good - but they may be wonderful in the eyes of people who know even less than they do. 

 

How did you determine that your pup "has a ton of great instinct for herding" if you have not have him on livestock yet?  Or have you been able to do that before this?  Most people here don't place much if any value on a formal "instinct test" (as defined and administered by some organizations) but a good trainer/handler can work with your pup to see if he appears to have the right kind of instincts to give training on stock a try. 

 

And, by the way, how old is your pup? 


Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#4 waffles

waffles

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 664 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NY

Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:18 AM

Just wanted to ask as well, what type of place did you go to? Is this a place that does all breed herding and AKC trials? Or is this a handler who works just with border collies? Years ago before I ever went to a USBCHA trial I saw an ad for a "herding trial " and went. Well it turned out to be an AKC sanctioned event with Rottweilers, some shepherds and one border collie. It was so terrible-owners were screaming at their dogs and smacking them, it was very chaotic. Everyone just watched as if it were normal. We left shortly later. Now though after going to sheepdog trials run through the USBCHA I have seen something entirely different. Without knowing what or where you went I can't comment on the handling you saw. I have also taken a few lessons and it was nothing like the all breed trial I went to- the lady barely spoke above a whisper but of course there may be times when pressure or a raised voice is needed. If you give more information I am sure more experienced people can comment better and suggest a handler/trainer for your location.

#5 Liz P

Liz P

    optimistic realist

  • Registered Users
  • 4,393 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:somewhere inside my brain

Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

I agree with the others that we need to know what was being done to comment.  Do remember that dogs are often so keen when they see sheep that you may need to be much more firm with them than you would be during obedience/agility/sport training, otherwise they will just blow you off and go bowling for sheep.

 

I use some tools that certain people find controversial, including a long line and a whip.  The long line is a tool I use to teach driving.  It prevents the dog from flanking around and fetching the sheep back to me.  I also use the line to prevent an overly keen young dog from blowing me off, to guide them into flanks, teach pace, etc.  Some people don't like the method.  Doesn't bother me at all.   People need to do what works for them (as long as it's not abusive). 

 

The whip I use for many reasons as well.  It's great for swishing in front of the stock to slow them down so they don't run over you.  It's also great to remind a dog to flank clean (similar to a stock stick or boogie bag).  I don't actually hit the dogs with it.  Personally I prefer using the whip because I want the dog to bend off that tool but to ignore a stock stick.  I want the stock stick to assist me during penning and shedding.  In those situations I want the sheep to respond to it but not the dog.  Again, this is just a difference of opinion.  Nothing wrong with using different methods.


Posted Image
Dangerous Dreams Farm


#6 Sue R

Sue R

    Bark less, wag more

  • Registered Users
  • 11,083 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bruceton Mills WV
  • Interests:Stockdogs, horses, chocolate

Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:51 AM

As Liz P rightfully points out, there are "tools" that can be used properly, in the right way, and to guide but not punish.  Some people will use some of them and some will have nothing to do with any of them.  As she says, if you are not being abusive and you get good training results, there are a number of different approaches. 

 

I have found it somewhat to be the case that those that put themselves forward for all-breed and AKC approaches are often not suited to working Border Collies, and often the "trainers" are less-than-stellar as trainers, instructors, and handlers. 

 

Anyone can hang out a shingle as a trainer, but that doesn't make them a good one.  And, even a good trainer may just not be the right trainer for you and your dog. 


Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#7 ArtTalKat

ArtTalKat

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 46 posts

Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

I'm so sorry, I forgot to put their methods >_< I'm not sure if I want to put the places name or not so I'll leave that out for now.

 

I'm pretty sure they are AKC, as there was border collies mostly, but also a Bovier Des Flanders, GSD, and Rottweiler. When I was watching they a GSD and his owner where in the the ring. The owner used the PVC pipe to land multiple blows on the dogs head, back, hindend, and even directly aiming for the face/muzzle. This was a full grown GSD, but it was also a full grown man swinging a PVC pipe hard at this dog. The dog wasn't going "after" the sheep, it was just chasing. They also threw bottles of rocks at the dog. I would be ok if it was near the dog to make noise to push the dog away a little, but this was directly at the dogs head and then the instructor and others watching started cheering "good shot" "you got him" etc.

 

I was seriously appalled. When I approached the owner for a refund she said that the dog had been going there for some time and needed a much firmer hand than some other dogs, but if the dog had been going there for so long don't you think it would be better trained if those methods where working?

 

Anyways, I eventually, after a lot of persuading and sweet talking, got my refund and booked it out of there.

 


I shouldn't of said he has a lot of instinct, I meant I think he may have the instinct to herd and do it well. He has the drive to herd things. When playing with the hose he will stalk/creep, down, and "get it" (chase, circle it) when told. It's really amazing to watch him, and it didn't take much training for him to do it with the water. He'll do it on his own, but I like to get a lot of impulse control in my puppies, so as soon as he stared chasing the hose, I put the ques on it. Though with sheep I imagine it would be queit a bit tougher since he is hard headed sometimes lol  Oh, and he's 6months almost 7 months right now.

 

I doubt we will be able to find another place to do herdnig lessons until we move, it's hard enough to find regular classes that aren't all slap a prong on every dog, start jerking, and let's go. 9_9 I guess we will have to stick to agility for now.



#8 Laurae

Laurae

    i'd rather be working my dogs...

  • Registered Users
  • 3,161 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

That sounds horrifying. It is NOT typical of border collie herding training. So glad you didn't subject your pup to that.


Cheers,
Laura
5120876952_de8afa8164.jpg
Poetry in motion with Sophie, Taz, Meg, Ike, and puppy Gus!
And Craig waiting at the bridge.

See profiles of many top competitors from the 2011 National Sheepdog Finals in Carbondale, Colorado
My Flickr page


#9 Liz P

Liz P

    optimistic realist

  • Registered Users
  • 4,393 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:somewhere inside my brain

Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

Sometimes you do need to get physical with a dog, but I would be looking elsewhere for lesson. 

 

1)  Your pup is young yet, too young for lots of pressure in training.  Make sure the instructor is qualified so that s/he doesn't put too much pressure on him.

 

2)  Prey drive on toys does not indicate future success on stock.


Posted Image
Dangerous Dreams Farm


#10 Sue R

Sue R

    Bark less, wag more

  • Registered Users
  • 11,083 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bruceton Mills WV
  • Interests:Stockdogs, horses, chocolate

Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

I'm so sorry, I forgot to put their methods >_< I'm not sure if I want to put the places name or not so I'll leave that out for now.

I was seriously appalled. When I approached the owner for a refund she said that the dog had been going there for some time and needed a much firmer hand than some other dogs, but if the dog had been going there for so long don't you think it would be better trained if those methods where working?
 

I doubt we will be able to find another place to do herdnig lessons until we move, it's hard enough to find regular classes that aren't all slap a prong on every dog, start jerking, and let's go. 9_9 I guess we will have to stick to agility for now.

 

It is very obvious that those methods aren't working but, since the clueless owner is apparently willing to keep writing out checks to the "trainer", and there are others doing the same, something is working for the "trainer" who is continuing to make money at the expense of the dog(s). 

 

If you can't find any reasonable, positive basic classes (puppy, family dog, etc.), you and your dog would be much better off if you got a good book (folks here can recommend some, I am sure) and did it yourself.  If you didn't mind posting your location, maybe someone here could suggest a good person/place to go for basic training. 

 

Your pup is really too young for training on stock, except under skilled hands that will just give him the chance to be exposed to pup-appropriate sheep for a few minutes at a time, maybe once a month.  Work on the basics instead and when you relocate, ask for recommendations in your new location. 

 

What you saw sounds appalling, particularly coupled with the reactions among the other "students" there.  It sounds to me like unproductive, physically-punishing methods are not only promoted, they are accepted. 


Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#11 PSmitty

PSmitty

    Socially awkward nonsense babbler

  • Registered Users
  • 9,049 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:St. Petersburg, FL

Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

Did you mention where you live? In case others can recommend someone? Lots of good BC trainers won't have a slick website or advertise, but by word of mouth, you may find a place to take him.

 

And as you've already figured out, no, hitting a dog with a PVC pipe isn't the norm in any herding lesson or evaluation. While some might frown on my trainer working with breeds other than BC (she is an Open handler, although she doesn't trial much anymore) still, a herding evaluation/instinct test consists of her, the dog and few sheep in the round pen. She will encourage the dog to go around the sheep, change directions, no pressure, no force of any kind. That and a stock stick, rake, paddle is about all that should be needed for a skilled handler to handle a novice dog, and then she should be able to give you an idea if your dog is showing good interest.

 

Good luck, I sure hope the next time is better! You were very wise to high-tail it out of there.


Paula
Lilly, Jack, Alex & Will

#12 ArtTalKat

ArtTalKat

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 46 posts

Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, I'm really glad to hear that this isn't normal or accepted! I was very conserned that this would be the norm for herding. Well at least now I feel better! ^_^

 

The obedience training I have no problem training myself. I go to classes more for the fun of being in a classroom situation. Though I recently moved here 3 months ago and it's a vast difference between here and where I use to be in dog training. Here is all prong, snap, and go. There I could find a lot of good positive reinforcement, clicker training, and shaping trainers. It's really kind of frustrating.

 

I'm in the spokane area, Washington State. He's good for basic obedience, we plan to get his CGC when it's offered next, should be easy though. I want him in agility, but the only trainer I like enough to start foundations classes doesn't offer a class at a time I can make. :( I'm going to do her foundations class next go around. :) I just really wanted to see how he'd do with sheep, to see if he would be good in a herding class.



#13 workindogs

workindogs

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 986 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

ArtTalKat

You should consider contacting Norm and Vickie Close of Handhills Border Collies in Coeur d' Alene ID.  http://www.handhills.com   They are  experienced with border collies and would be the best place to go if you live in Spokane WA area.   You are very fortunate to live close enough to them to get some instruction. 

 

A long long time ago I took my busy border collie (we had done obedience and agility previously) to an all breed AKC trainer in order to see if she had any instinct.  I also had a German Shepherd who I already knew had tons of prey drive and had no intention of "testing" on sheep.  Prior to my turn I saw a whole lot of beating rotties and aussies and GSDs off stock....it made me feel uncomfortable.  When it was my turn to try my little border collie, it went "ok"....the trainer backed off with most of the weapons but the sheep were sour and there was alot of blocking and waving a stick.  My border collie made a few attempts to engage the stock but was blocked and intimidated.  She was declared mediocre....marginally talented.  The instructor then cranked her head back towards my truck and asked  "who's the German Shepherd in your car?"....I replied "oh no, I don't want to try her....she will kill.  She is a serial cat killer". The instructor insisted and i didn't want anything to do with it.  The "instinct test" was a prolonged beating of my dog to keep her from eating the sheep.....yes, she did have a little bit of desire to keep the group together.....but much great prey drive to go for the jugular and kill one.  The experience was horrendous.  At the end of the "test", the instructor declared that my German Shepherd was extremely talented and should continue lessons....but forget about the border collie.  I left and never went back.

 

I found another instructor....one that specialized in border collies.  My little girl didn't have immense talent but had some talent and desire....she trained to about PN level....a nice useful little ranch dog.  My GSD was not allowed out of the truck....and my instructor preferred that she be left at home.  I understood completely :-)  

 

Please find a competent border collie trainer who trials in USBCHA trials......please contact the Close's.  

 

Good luck.


Elizabeth
with Ross, Soot, Craig and Hattie
Steadfast Stockdogs
Oregon, USA


#14 Gloria Atwater

Gloria Atwater

    Talksalot

  • Registered Users
  • 1,769 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:northern Nevada
  • Interests:Sheepdogging!

Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:25 PM

Hi there ~

I've read your posts and I can only second the others' replies: What you saw was NOT the norm for sheepdog training! Yes, the all-breed world does sometimes condone that sort of thing and sadly, you found one of those "trainers" who is all about chasing and pushing and confronting the dog. That WAS abuse, IMHO, because if that's what it took to "work" that GSD, then it had no business being on sheep. However, clearly the owner was all about the titles and crap, so of course they carry on.

That is NOT how it's done in the Border Collie world.

But meanwhile, at 6 coming 7 months old, your pup is still too young to do what his instincts may prompt him to do. Let him grow up. Let his BONES finish growing. Don't ask him to do anything but play and learn his manners and basic obedience. When he's about 10 months old and physically ready for the demands of sheep work, then try him - with a respectable trainer. Elizabeth has given you a good lead.

He's just a baby now, though, and no matter what he shows or doesn't show on sheep now, it will change by the time he's ready for training at @ 10 months old. Let his bones finish growing, his knees finish closing, his body in general to become ready for the demands he'll put upon it. The same goes if you decide to pursue agility instead. Don't push him, now. He could really hurt himself just in his eagerness to have fun.

And you made the right call with that "trainer."  Good lord. *shakes head* Best of luck with your pup!

~ Gloria


You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~ Emily Dickinson

To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring - it was peace. ~ Milan Kundera

#15 DeltaBluez Tess

DeltaBluez Tess

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,928 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Carnation, WA

Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:55 AM

Where was this trainer located?

 

 


*************************
Diane Pagel
DeltaBluez Stockdogs
www.deltabluez.com
www.deltabluez.blogspot.com
www.dynamitemarketing.com/deltabluezstockdogs
Carnation, WA
************************

#16 ChantalB

ChantalB

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 285 posts

Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:13 AM

Spokane?? I feel like there would be a nice choice of agility (positive) in that area no? I'm about a 2.5 hour drive from you on BC.

#17 Jumpin Boots

Jumpin Boots

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 643 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NW Washington
  • Interests:Farming, sheep, gardening, agility, reining

Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:49 AM

Good for you for standing up for your puppy and getting out of there!

 

Have you contacted the Hoodoo Howlers group (http://www.hoodoohowlers.com/) regarding agility training, or trainers in that area? I am on the West side of the mountains, but went over there for a trial last year, they are up in Deer Park, so not too far away. Looking at their website looks like there are some links toward the bottom of the home page for some different clubs over there. One of the board members lives in that area, if you look in the agility area of the forum you should be able to find her, her dogs name is Meg; she posted some videos not too long ago, she may be able to give you some contacts too.

 

Cute puppy picts are always appreciated too :)



#18 ArtTalKat

ArtTalKat

    Member

  • Registered Users
  • 46 posts

Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

No worries, We don't do anything that's too tough on him. The foundations agility class I wanted was a puppy foundations and the trainer is very aware of growth plates in puppies not being fully closed and needing lighter work. It's all about ground work for the foundations class anyways, they really aren't introduced on the equiptment until the second class, and that's weave poles. :) I can't wait to take the class LOL :P

 

Where was this trainer located?

 

That trainer was located in Roy, Wa. Well, I guess I might as well say the name was Ewe-topia.

 

Spokane?? I feel like there would be a nice choice of agility (positive) in that area no? I'm about a 2.5 hour drive from you on BC.

 

It's been hard for me to find one. There is one agility trainer in the area that I like, but like I said the darn puppy foundations class is on Tuesday and today is a busy day for me. :(

 

 

Good for you for standing up for your puppy and getting out of there!

 

Have you contacted the Hoodoo Howlers group (http://www.hoodoohowlers.com/) regarding agility training, or trainers in that area? I am on the West side of the mountains, but went over there for a trial last year, they are up in Deer Park, so not too far away. Looking at their website looks like there are some links toward the bottom of the home page for some different clubs over there. One of the board members lives in that area, if you look in the agility area of the forum you should be able to find her, her dogs name is Meg; she posted some videos not too long ago, she may be able to give you some contacts too.

 

Cute puppy picts are always appreciated too :)

 

I'll try to contact them, but Deer Park is really kinda stretching it on distance. Google maps says it's 65mins away from me, but honestly going up division takes at least an extra 30 minutes. So about 90 mins to get there every week for 6 weeks it's a bit tough. I don't live exactly in spokane, I live south of cheney slightly, but it's considered the spokane area. So it's a bit of a drive to just get to spokane. I'm willing to drive an hour a way, but would prefer 30mins. I'll go look at the agility section though! :) Thanks! LOL I have plenty of pictures, I'll post a couple :)

 



#19 Sue R

Sue R

    Bark less, wag more

  • Registered Users
  • 11,083 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Bruceton Mills WV
  • Interests:Stockdogs, horses, chocolate

Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

I don't believe I know anyone who would recommend that facility that you went to for training.  Any place like that that actively encourages just about anything of any breed to "herd" is waving a huge red flag.  So is any facility that is AKC-oriented (and many places that are AKC-oriented are also AHBA-oriented, and both of these groups are involved with "all-breeds").  And, I hate to say it, but any facility like this is pretty much going to be AKC, people with pets wanting their dogs to "have fun with sheep", and not a place to go to even if they do host occasional USBCHA-sanctioned trials.  JMO. 

 

When and if you and your pup are ready to do some beneficial training (or just evaluating if your pup is the sort of dog that will do stockwork), find someone (like Norm and Vicki Close) who are successful Open handlers in USBCHA trials (and not just "arena" trials which can be good or not much better than AKC venues) and who are respected. 

 

This board is a good place to ask opinions about trainers, and you may get better feedback if you also ask for PMs about any person/facility you are interested in.  Most good trainers do not have slick websites; do not actively solicit students, particularly those who are only looking for "recreational herding"; and are best found by word-of-mouth. 

 

In addition to Norm and Vicki, Idaho is also the home of Dianne Deal and also Patrick Shannahan, both greatly-respected trainers who also do clinics.  Another alternative to a few lessons is to attend a clinic by a respected trainer.  It costs more than a single lesson but a clinic usually runs two or more days and gives you the chance to work with your dog but also to observe and ask questions about others working their dogs. 

 

Go to this page http://www.usbcha.co...ing_trials.html to see if there are any upcoming trials in your area or nearby, where you can meet handlers and their dogs, volunteer (a great way to meet people and make connections), and ask for recommendations. 

 

Your pup is pretty young so you have plenty of time to look around and check things out. 


Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#20 Hooper

Hooper

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 15 posts

Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:19 AM

That trainer was located in Roy, Wa. Well, I guess I might as well say the name was Ewe-topia.

I feel the need to defend my home town.   Roy WA is not really in the Spokane area.  Roy is 300 miles away from the Spokane area.  Have you met Google?  Because if you Google "herding dog training spokane" Norm's web site comes up right below the "facility" in Roy (and incidentally, if you had said you were in WA, but not mentioned Spokane, Roy is where I would have guessed you went, just based on your description). Unless by "south of Cheney a little" you mean "Yakima", Coeur d'Alene is way closer than Roy.  

 

There are a lot of dog trainers in the Spokane area, and the range of methods used varies widely.  But it's simply not correct that we're all "prong, snap, and go".   Again, Google is your friend.    It is true that if you live south of Cheney "a little" you may have to drive 30 to 40 minutes to get to some of the training classes offered in Spokane.  Services being further away is one of the prices one pays for living in a rural area.    And honestly, if you are hoping to find someplace to train on stock within a 30 minute drive, that's very unlikely to happen just about anywhere.   If driving an hour to a quality place to train on stock is more time than you can manage (and there's certainly no shame in being too busy to have hours to spend on a dog hobby) then stock work is not for you.   Training a dog to work stock takes time and commitment, and if you don't  have that kind of time available, then just sporadically taking your dog to sheep with no realistic hope of developing any real level of skill is just stressing sheep for no purpose.   Again, it's not a criticism to acknowledge that you don't have the discretionary time to devote to this activity.   I'm sure Norm would be happy to give you a good honest evaluation of your dog's potential, but unless you plan to do something with that potential, please don't regard herding as recreation for your dog.   Unlike agility obstacles, sheep are sentient beings that should not be stressed merely for entertainment.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, 2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.