3 replies to this topic

[Maja]

So just so TEC does not feel bad about putting in his input for my question, I moving the parts related to it here.

The original question was asked here, and below is the last update:

I think my outrun problem has been solved. I went to a trial (it was the first trial since the one in November last year) where Bonnie sliced in again starting at about 2 o'clock. Again she managed to get the ensuing chaos under control nonetheless, and we came fourth out of seven dogs even with me getting stuck at the shed. But what was crucial here was that the next day we had a clinic with the judge. And he first set up the outrun for us, told me to send Bonnie, told me to stop her at two o'clock, and told me to lift from there. The sheep came nice and straight and calm and Bonnie was perfectly nice and calm. And he said "this is where the balance is now". And a little light came on in my muddled brain.

Later I watched some videos from the trial and the majority of dogs lifted from about the same point, but their handlers had the sense to let them do it. The only thing that is positive, apart from me learning what is going on, is that I had felt for quite a while that I should down Bonnie as soon as she begins to move inside and do a lift from there, but I never got the nerve to do it.

[Maja]

To which post TEC replied:

Good job at trial. Shedding is difficult for dog and handler, and like everything, takes practice. Some dogs take to it quickly and others learn to like it.

Did instructor mean that 2:00 o'clock was proper balance for that particular field, or that it was Bonnie's balance at lift? There are circumstances in which you may wish to have dog over-flamk at top and go beyond 12:00, from either side.

Your instructor's technique to fix cutting-in on outrun is a good and standard one. Used it often to help my own dog. It's a real plus that your dog downs when asked in that circumstance. Many won't, seemingly deaf with excitement. Your timing must be good, downing her the moment you sense Bonnie is going to slice. See if that will fix her outrun and lift. I view that particular technique as a safety net when I don't really expect a slice at the top, but for some reason can sense it coming. I'm fortunate, as well, that my dog will usually down when needed, even when about to lift from an incorrect angle.

Here is method I have used to teach a proper lift. Put dog in down stay far enough away from sheep that she will probably try to slice-in. I then get close enough to sheep to control the lift. Send her toward me and sheep, so that the moment I believe she is thinking about narrowing her flank (I trot a few steps toward sheep as dog passes my location) down her, place myself directly between sheep and dog, and pretty sternly while walking toward dog tell her to get back directly off sheep. Down her again, and gently ask her to flank again to approx 12:00, walk back down field as she is correcting lift, then ask her to fetch to me. Lengthen outrun as dog does better lifts, and repeat. IMO, putting yourself between dog and sheep at top speaks to the dog in its language. Tells dog those are your sheep, and he/she is not going to crash into them. Worked for us, and fairly quickly. Just another device to consider putting in your kit (if not there already), for use if it seems appropriate.

Wish more members discussed herding training more frequently. Keep up the good work. Cutting-in is not an uncommon problem, and is correctable. Enjoy your narratives. -- Best wishes, TEC

[Maja]

And now me again:

Some dogs take to it quickly and others learn to like it.

Bonnie is a decent shedder. Her handler isn't yet. I'm not being cute, I just never had the chance to shed with someone's help before the trial At home we practiced on geese. I was not able to handle the sheep well, and I felt it very strongly. Fortunately, the next day the judge showed me how to shed.

Did instructor mean that 2:00 o'clock was proper balance for that particular field, or that it was Bonnie's balance at lift? There are circumstances in which you may wish to have dog over-flank at top and go beyond 12:00, from either side.

I can't say for sure, because there was a powerful draw in that direction. (Most everybody's fetch was fought for very hard every inch of the way and was billowed or snaky in that direction. Bonnie-being Bonnie-pushed the sheep so hard the other way that we missed the fetch gate from the left (!) ). The judge was German so the communication wasn't perfect. My feeling was that if Bonnie is thinking about slicing in, I must down her immediately.

Bonnie lifts often from 12:00 (and she is perfectly capable of "overshooting" - that's in quotes because she usually has a reason for it), which is a "problem", as you could see perhaps in the videos from the clinic in May - her outrun was very good, so there was nothing for the teacher to actually see. That's why having a clinic after the trial was a Godsend for me. I can follow Amanda's and your advice when I can, and at trials, I have this to fall back on.

It's a real plus that your dog downs when asked in that circumstance. Many won't, seemingly deaf with excitement. Your timing must be good, downing her the moment you sense Bonnie is going to slice.

Absolutely. If I am a split second too late she won't lie down.

Here is method I have used to teach a proper lift. Put dog in down stay far enough away from sheep that she will probably try to slice-in. I then get close enough to sheep to control the lift. Send her toward me and sheep, so that the moment I believe she is thinking about narrowing her flank (I trot a few steps toward sheep as dog passes my location) down her, place myself directly between sheep and dog...Just another device to consider putting in your kit (if not there already), for use if it seems appropriate.

Yes, it is very good advice. I have used it in the past, but at home Bonnie does not slice in. It's a text book outrun and lift. She can do a 200yd outrun - for a larger one I am lacking the length on our field.

Thank you for all your comments and encouragement. One other thing that the judge did was first send Bonnie on an outrun, lie her down at about 2:00 and leave her be. Ignore her. After a longish while she got up very slowly and lifted the sheep very carefully and fetched them checking herself each time they sped up. He said that it shows Bonnie knows how to lift.
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So now all is nice and tidy I hope. TEC, thanks again for the input!

[TEC]

So now all is nice and tidy I hope. TEC, thanks again for the input!

You are welcome. Have got to start wearing my glasses so I don't mistakenly/inappropriately post in BC Boards expert forum Had nothing to do with glasses, just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Maja, you are thoughtful lady to go to trouble of moving thread like that. Not expected at all. Thank you. -- TEC