Hi Liz,
First off, how old is Robin? From what you describe, your dog is beating you to sheep, and likely slicing and chousing in the process. This isn't so much bad on the dog as it is poor timing and positioning on your part. I don't diminish enthusiasm, but it's imperative that it be shaped appropriately.
While training Robin, you must match his intention with your own. In other words be strong enough with him that you get his attention. It sounds like you aren't at this point and he's having his way with you. Again, that doesn't make him bad, it makes him keen. The fact that he's holding sheep to the fence and not balancing to you tells me he's playing, not thinking. Got to get him thinking.
Start by leaving him on a line, walking towards sheep, and if he runs at them before you want him to, stay silent, hold the line tight and allow him to gently hit the end of it. A few feet of loose line won't allow him to build enough speed to hurt himself, but will make him realize you're in the picture.
Once you can walk in the direction of sheep without him taking off, lie him down 20-30ft from the sheep. The idea will be for him to stay there while you walk all the way to them. If your line is that long, hold onto it, making him stay, until you get to the sheep. If he takes off before you get there, shorten up, let him gently hit the end of it, put him back where he began with a correction for leaving before you asked, and repeat until he stays put while you walk to the sheep. If you match his intention, it won't take long for him to learn to stay put.
Once he will stay until you get to the sheep, you can ask for a proper flank. Stand in a direct line between him and the sheep, ask for a flank, and intently watch the very first step he takes. If it is directly towards you and the sheep, he is slicing. Give a correction, lie him down, move him back to where he started. Back up to the sheep, and repeat until his first step is out.
At that point it's up to you to stay in a position between him and the sheep that prevents him from tightening up his arc, and in the beginning, he will continually try to tighten up, because that's what he's used to. Generally, if his arc is getting tighter, you're out of position. As he is flanking, keep moving to remain between him and the sheep and cause him to widen continually. If he is, you've got it right.
If you're too far in front of him, he'll reverse his direction. Too far behind him, he'll slice. You just have to play with it, and find your sweet spot. I give a correction for reversal, and make dogs continue flanking in the direction they started, whether I'm too far in front or not. That's how you get an off balance flank and how you keep dogs flanking freely. Something to think about even in the beginning stages.
As far as dragging you back to the sheep after you've said "that'll do." A little puppy enthusiasm is to be expected, but I never, ever let my dogs or puppies pull on me. Never. Very bad manners. I make the rules. If he's pulling as you're walking away, gently tug and release saying "that'll do." Once again, if you match his intention with your own, it won't take long to teach him not to pull. The key to this, like everything else, is to be 100% consistent so the message is perfectly clear and resolute.
Good luck with him.
I need luck with this Red Dog - and all my wits. He's 3 years old this year. We've been training in fits and starts as I've been working around some illness, now behind me. At this point, we've been doing as you outlined and he is good about walking into the field, lying down and waiting for a command while I walk up the line to the sheep then I turn back to face him and send him around and he brings them to me - and off we go "walkies", wearing the sheep down and back. He balances pretty well though both he and my other dog insist on guarding the off side, staying between the sheep and the barn. It's not pretty but we're managing that part.
Edit -- we do need to practice the middle part you describe, widening his arc - I've been standing at the bottom of the clock - say 6 o clock but if I move to around 3 o clock before giving him the release command that might help because that's where he starts to slice in?
It's the next step, when I'm standing with him beside me and sending him off from the post as it were on an outrun - this is very new for us. I'm missing a very major part of the puzzle. When he is collecting them from the barn side of the field, he does pretty well - he seems to get them all together, brings them to the "post" at a reasonable pace, and then off we go wearing the sheep again. It is when we turn around and try it in the other direction that he gets all ramped up - holding them against the fence, then kiting all around them. Maybe he's reacting to the pressure - not wanting them to go back to the barn? So many different elements at play?
(As for that pulling -- never, never have I had a dog that pulls on a lead like he does. I've tried what seems like a hundred different techniques to break him. What worked the best was switching direction (as you say, a counter move). He knows he's doing wrong and he's sorry every time. The second he's aware that he's misbehaving, he comes right back to heel then he's right at it again. Off lead, he sticks with me quite well, even walking up to the sheep. I don't quite trust him when we're coming off the sheep. He responds to "That will do, here" but it really bothers him to leave the sheep out in the field. Several times it's been thundering hooves - "HEY YOU FORGOT THESE!" Post manners also top our list of things to learn.
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