32 replies to this topic

[Liz P]

I was finally able to download and watch the video. At what age do you start asking for clean flanks?

[stockdogranch]

At what age do you start asking for clean flanks?

Honestly, I don't. I don't push dogs out, as I find they naturally widen out on their own as they get older and mature. I let the pup develop on its own, so that way it gets a feel for its stock, and learns how wide or square it needs to be in any given situation. I think flanks need to be as square as they need to be *in that particular situation*--in other words, I don't like an arbitrarily square flank all the time, as I find it is not effective in some situations. Now when I am first starting a pup, if it is trying to grab hold every time it goes around, I'll get on its case for that. I don't want the pup to think that grabbing on every time it flanks is ok. But if it is just slicey, I don't worry about that, as I find it to be self-correcting. As the pup develops, it learns that being slicey is just not working, as it makes a mess of things. So over time, the pup widens out, both on flanks and on outruns.

I would also add that this "method" (or lack thereof) may also be a function of training my dogs to be successful competing on cattle and just doing work on the ranch, as opposed to sheep trialling. I think flanks need to be more square, in general, for sheep, as sheep are more sensitive side-to-side than cattle, usually. And the dog needs to come further round to the shoulder on cattle to move them, and even farther around to the head to turn them (again, generally speaking). So, for instance, on the drive, say, going to a set of panels, if the dog were as square on cattle as one would normally like to see and that would be effective on sheep, the dog would end up being off contact and not influencing the cattle to turn. I also think that if the dog is as deep at the top of the outrun on cattle as we normally like to see on sheep, it may not be very effective in lifting those cattle. I do quite a bit of setout at sheep trials, and my dogs seem to adjust appropriately to move them calmly and quietly. This September I will be using a young dog quite a bit for setout for her first time (she's done only a little bit in the past). I would expect that at first her flanks may not be ideal for those range ewes, as she's more accustomed to moving cattle, but experience tells me that after 3 or 4 sets, she will begin to square herself more, as she'll get a feel for those range ewes and see what works with them. But, since my dogs are used to trialling on cattle, I would fully expect that if I were to trial them on sheep, particularly for the younger dogs (the older ones have it figured out by now), I would likely lose a few points at the top of the outrun for being a little "tight," and probably a few on the lift for being a bit "rash," since their "default" setting is for cattle. The advantage with doing setout is that the dog is moving sheep from the same flock over and over again, and so can get a feel for what kind of treatment they require. I find that once the dog has had experience with different flocks of range ewes, they automatically adjust themselves for the stock they are presented with.

I don't tend to drill dogs hardly at all--I do most of my work in the context of getting jobs done. I do set up a lot of outruns in decent sized pastures with a lot of sheep (who tend to spread way out), so that the dog needs to learn to scope the field. I think this helps them in making on-the-spot adjustments on outruns, which I think also translates to flanks. And they do learn a "get baaaaaack" in this context to widen them out, mostly so they see all the sheep and don't get locked onto the first packet they come to.

I also very much dislike fence running dogs. I see it a lot out here on outruns, and I think it wastes energy and time, and if the stock decided to take off, the dog is not in a position to do anything about it--it's off contact. And then, when you end up on a huge field with no fences (like Zamora), those wide-running dogs can get lost on the outrun.

But I guess mostly, it's a kind of philosophical thing--I would rather the pup develop its own feel for stock and adjust accordingly, rather than to teach the dog a prescribed "shape" to follow every time it flanks. I find I am pretty much this way with most things in training these dogs--I like the dog to figure things out and find its own way of interacting with the stock. I like to make it clear to the dog what the job is, and let the dog decide how to best execute that job.

That was a lot of rambling; not sure it answered your question
A

[Liz P]

Sorry for the belated reply. Work, having visiting family and being out of town for a trial kept me busy.

I don't push dogs out either. I ask for clean flanks, which eventually translates into a clean outrun (since that is just a really big flank). There is a difference between demanding clean flanks and a person stubbornly insisting on wide flanks.

You have sheep and train your dogs on them as well, right? Do your sheep not need clean flanks in order to be worked calmly?

I would agree that from my admittedly limited experience a dog must lift cattle differently than sheep, but they still need to get around them during the outrun. So, I guess I am still not seeing why it isn't important for a dog to know what a clean flank is no matter what the stock (a clean flank on cattle or heavy sheep will be much closer than one on lighter stock).

[Pam Wolf]

hey Liz, I heard you did quite well at the trial? 1st in P/N with June-and placed well with the pup! congrats, isn't this June's 1st trial season?

BTW, Cattle do lift differently from sheep, but more like goats. However a good dog CAN lift them gently and calmly. In my experience, movement works much better on cows than on sheep, but do that in our temps and the dog will be dead. i still prefer a dog that moves cattle with strenght of conviction rather than slash and dash

[Liz P]

Yes, thanks. After you beat some sense into the handler, my dogs suddenly began to work so much nicer. Funny how that works.

I am very pleased with how Juniper is coming along and will be trying her out in Open starting this fall. I ran her once in ranch last year and she placed (3rd), but haven't had her out again until this summer. I just didn't have the time for training, let alone for traveling to trials. Aside from chores, she is still only getting 1 or 2 focused sessions a week, and for the past month those have been on cattle, not sheep.

I am trying to get Hazel ready for Nursery, but I think she needs this winter to grow up a bit. This trial season was just about getting her used to a set out person and the whole trial experience.

[Sue R]

You have sheep and train your dogs on them as well, right? Do your sheep not need clean flanks in order to be worked calmly?

Not Anna, as she is on her western cattledog circuit right now, I believe - but I've watched just about all of Anna's dogs on both sheep and cattle, in a number of different situations, and most adjust according to the stock they are working - big flock (always mixed ages, mothers with tiny babies, mothers will big babies, school boys, lambs ready for market); a sorted group of any size and composition, but usually without little babies and their mothers; large cattle on feed; school calves (heavy or light).

Most all of her dogs, including youngsters like Bukkle, read their stock and respond appropriately. Dan's sister, on the other hand, is not very respectful of sheep and has a lot of push on cattle. Anna has to ride the brakes on her. And Dan is quite the same. Her younger half-siblings are excellent chore dogs on both sheep and cattle.

Maybe what Anna's saying (at least my take on it) is that she lets the dogs develop and learn to figure things out, rather than trying to force them into a mold. Rather like Jack, making the right easy and the wrong hard, and guiding them in the right direction instead of pushing them. She winds up with some very practical, hard-working, get-it-done dogs - the kind of dog a rancher or farmer can rely on but, in some cases, maybe not a "trial dog".

Riddle and Tikkle can work both sheep and cattle well, but Anna has chosen to limit her trialing to cattle while the dogs get plenty of work with a flock of about 150 at home, moving around to different pastures, sorting, working, and so on. But the way both Skamper and Bukkle are coming along, I think either could make a trial dog on both sheep and cattle were Anna so inclined to pursue both as her goal.

JMO. And I hope Anna sees this to correct me if I am reading her wrong.

[juliepoudrier]

Maybe what Anna's saying (at least my take on it) is that she lets the dogs develop and learn to figure things out, rather than trying to force them into a mold. Rather like Jack, making the right easy and the wrong hard, and guiding them in the right direction instead of pushing them.

This is how I understood it too. It's the approach I take. Having had a wide running, extreme square (clean) flanking dog, who is and has been my absolute best dog--a dog who did this *naturally*--but whose automatic square flanks can also cause problems, I did not once push out her too-tight, flank slicing offspring. One day, right around the time he turned 3, I sent Pip on an outrun and he kicked back square from my feet, going extremely wide (given the terrain and where the sheep were). I immediately started working on calling him in and not letting him be square and wide. The difference of course is that I was a more experienced trainer and managed to learn from my mistakes with his mother.

To this day I will not push a dog out. I may give a correction for slicing a flank, but I strongly believe in letting the sheep teach the dog that it will pay for the indiscretions. If you have the right sheep and the dog slices, the sheep are going to react badly. Between the sheep's reaction and my voice correction, the dog *figures out* that it did wrong. I'm aiming for dogs who read their stock and react appropriately, given the situation at hand, and I don't think you can train a specific thing like "always give square flanks" and end up with a dog that is useful in a variety of situations, on or off the trial field.

In the end, training a dog this way should result in a dog that can think on its feet and do the right thing no matter what the stock or the situation. There are times working livestock at home that I *want* the dog to slice the flank, because that's the only way to catch the escaping animals quickly. If I have taken that out of the dog, then it is a tool I no longer have. I want my dogs to know when a square flank is appropriate and when a non-square flank is appropriate. For me, that's the difference between being a good trial dog or being a good all-around dog. And of course always square flanks are less useful on cattle (in general) than they are on sheep.

J.

[Liz P]

I asked when she starts to teach clean flanks, not square flanks.

Also, if you read my post I said that I don't constantly push a dog out. I've got a young dog who is running really tight on many of her outruns, but I know she will widen out on her own when she is older. I am not messing with her outrun or flanks now because I know if I do she will be too wide once she matures.

I was just commenting to someone that you can pick out all the dogs at trials who were pushed out by the way that they work. I don't like the results.

Even you state in your above post that you correct for sliced flanks. I do the same thing, I ask for clean flanks in training if the dog is affecting the stock, but during work sometimes the dog just needs to stop bolting stock. In those situations I tend to just shush a dog rather than give a flank to indicate that the dog can chose the method/direction they feel is most appropriate. Again, clean flanks will vary based on the type of stock.

[juliepoudrier]

It looks to me like you asked the question, Anna answered it, and you asked it again for whatever reason. That seemed to imply that what you define as clean flanks might not be what Anna defines as clean flanks, since Anna said she does not push a dog off stock. You say you don't push the dog off either, and yet appaerntly you're seeing something in the video that made you ask the question in the first place. But in any case, if that was your real question, then her answer is clear: she doesn't teach it; she lets the dog figure it out.

It might be helpful if you posted a video of a training session with one of your young dogs so we can see what you mean by teaching clean flanks. Then we'd have a better reference point from which to have this discussion.

Oh and FWIW I doubt people can always tell dogs who have been pushed out. I always hear people talk about how they can tell a dog has been taught to run a fence. My wide runner will run a fence. She wasn't taught that, so anyone who ever watched her run and thought to him/herself that the dog was taught to run the fence would have been completely wrong. Just saying.

J.

[Pam Wolf]

IMO a clean flank means the dog does not disturb the stock while making the flank, but maintains contact with the stock.

[Liz P]

I think you are reading into this too much. She said sheep need wider flanks, but that she doesn't teach them (she lets her dogs develop them over time). I asked if her sheep are more tolerant of sliced flanks (some are) because with certain sheep, if you slice your flanks they are running for the hills and the training session is over. It's awfully hard to train a pup on sheep like that.

IMHO, the dogs who look like they have been pushed out (but not taught correct flanks) are the ones who are wide at the start of the flank but tend to slice at the top. In other words, they know exactly where they can get away with being tighter. Maybe I am wrong about that.

I could easily see my young dog one day becoming a fence runner. She is naturally quite wide at home. At trials she is tighter (too tight) because she is excited, but I am not worried about that.

[Amelia]

Honestly, I don't. I don't push dogs out

I don't either, but I teach clean flanks from the very beginning.

What's the difference between a clean flank, and a slice? Covering. That is all.

If your dog slices, it doesn't learn to cover. If your dog doesn't cover, it has to resort to cheap shots. If your dog cheap shots, it never develops the confidence to walk straight on to stock using it's presence and eye. If your dog doesn't develop confidence it must always resort to cheap shots. If you breed them, you'll never know whether you're breeding cowards regardless of the type of stock you work, or how many.

I don't let my dogs bend off the pressure on the fetch or drive either. I need to know whether they have the power to walk straight on. If you want to find out whether your dogs have power, you can't let them compensate for their weaknesses by slicing and cheap shotting. We should be breeding powerful dogs.

Cheers all

[Tea]

Thanks for posting all of this..
I think I understand clean flanks and slicing. And Amelia saying covering rang a bell with me.

In the beggining of my work, Sweep would slice. And so would Gunny.(My poor understandingof training.) But not Cap, and generally not Taw.And not my young dogs after PS gave me some lessons on flanks and pace etc.

However, on the narrow trails the dogs may have to stop the whole flock quickly and there is no room. But the sheep are used to the dogs. This helps me that my old ewe flock is comfortable with the dogs. so if a dog must run up the sides to stop the flock everyone remains pretty calm. Unless there is a bear or a loose mean dog up ahead.

Also the cheap shots and power thing is very true. So many things the dogs must have to do my work.
And teaching them patiently to use their eye and their power. I am not quick to put my young dogs on calves. And I too use an older dog with them and really dog broke calves. The pups that are my replacements I am going very slow with. Learning.......

When you start this journey you might think power is one thing, then you see that is really might be another.
thanks all