24 replies to this topic

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Here is my Little Eluane! We had one preliminary walkthrough with just me and E alone for 3 minutes to encourage Eluane to get close to the sheep. I led her with my directional commands at first. Then after the 3 minutes' time, Pam joined us and showed me how to let Eluane's own inner self do the working. And here is the video So literally this is indeed her "first time" and her very first try with stock!

[Maja]

Eluanie is showing very nice interest in stock, and she respodns to human pressure, which is good, and I can see who is in greater need of training in your team . But it's always that way . I hope you continue with this work, and I hope you two have a good time working together.

Maja

[MrSnappy]

Those are sheep? They look a lot like goats.

RDM

[Maja]

I thought they are goats too.

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Thank you so much Maja for your very kind, sweet words about Little Eluane.

Hahaha, yes, Pam has sheep and goats, but I loooove taking photos of the laaaambs! I'm obsessed with lambs. I even have a plush lamb pillow on my sofa from 20 years back from my college days, lol! Pam said lambs are too crazy/unpredictable and goats for the very first time (dog who's never seen livestock) is best! Goats also needed a break because Pam had to train two dogs ahead of Eluane! Plus the next paragraph will show you how much I stressed out the goats too, Bless them!

Photo taking is stressful for lambs even. They were running to me and huddling up to me because Gustav the Kelpie was rounding them up so that my Dad could take photos. I loved watching Gustav with the lambs, they are just too adorable. OH, Maja! If you think I was bad in that video I was even WORSE later. Eluane only got 2 tries. But I had 2 tries with Pam on my own with another young dog who was doing great in her training, but I was DREADFUL! I kept getting distracted, staring at the dog and forgetting where was my left and where was my right. You all would have passed out from watching me. I was sooo uncool, lol!

By the way folks I need to do a screen capture of me wildly gesturing to my Dad and falling to the side as Pam was pulling on my arm. I was trying to tell him to use the tripod. So hilarious. I'll do a screen capture so you can all laugh at the sight. Pam had to do the same pulling of the arm because I kept bumping and tripping over the goats while Pam was desperately trying to train me with the other young dog too. Poor sweet goats!

[Maja]

Well, getting mixed up, turned around, yanked about by the instructor, falling over the sheep, getting trampled, slipping on dooodoos, forgetting your name and who you are and what the heck you are doing in this bedlam and many many other interesting things is part and parcel of beginning in sheep herding . It is because sheep herding cannot be sliced into manageable pieces like other (more sane) training. So there is inner and outer chaos for a very long time. So just accept it as a fact of life and relax .

I remember it was a big day when I felt confident enough to wear shorts for herding instead of long trousers, because I trusted Bonnie not to rush the horned ram past me. With long trousers I'd only get bruised - with shorts it was a bruise and a nasty scratch, so the "shorts day" was a big day .

maja

[PSmitty]

Good job! I'm glad you got to experience it.

[Cynthia P]

Good job and yes those are boer goats.

I have a couple of students that hate when I pull them around....but watching Pam has inspired me to do it more!

Cynthia

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Thank you so much for the kind encouragement Maja, Paula and Cynthia. My Dad, Eluane and I are so blessed to have had these wonderful, treasured memories! I am really looking forward to coming back and doing more training. Hehe, Cynthis I have a big tatoo on my forehead that reads "pull me", plus a sign on my behind that says "kick me" haha! on how I keep making a mess or even worse just standing slack-jawed thinking huuuuh??? What? say that again????. But actually it was so fun with Pam! and Eluane really enjoyed herself too, that is the most important. She really loved her time at the farm.

[juliepoudrier]

Definitely don't worry about the pulling around and the general chaos. As Maja said, it's all part and parcel of learning to work a dog on stock. Good luck! Off to work the puppy....

J.

[terrecar]

Do goats typically flock that nicely? I actually plan on getting milking goats rather than sheep.

Congrats on your lesson, Serena!

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

hehe, Julie, Pam made it sooo easy. I just followed her!

What was messy and ugly was when it was just me, one of Pam's clients' trainee dog, and the goats. Pam stood on the outskirts trying to yell directions where to point the chords (which she calls the whip).... But I still just could not! get it. Every time I turned to look at the dog, I'd point the whip in the wrong direction.... I'd get the dang lefts and rights facing mixed up with the lefts and rights with my back to the dog, and I'd lose track of the dog and trip over yet another goat. Even worse, I'd send the good trainee dog into the wrong direction and it would stare at me as if to say what the *ell are you doing and stop messing me up!

OH, I had to go back and edit my replies, lol! I must have been that HORRIBLE that my Dad didn't take video with me and the trainee dog He must have decided to play with and entertain the E instead of watching my chaos. DANG, I thought it would have made pretty hilarious comedic relief. But hehe, looks like I even made my Dad cringe in his seat.

Terrecar, what is so cool is the love and trust of a B.C. for its owner, and it's that one-on-one partnership that makes them come alive! Eluane is extremely shy. For example if another dog is in the area- she is crazy about the ball but will slink on the sidelines and will stay far away from the ball and won't even look at the dog or the ball and will actually run and hide out. It does no good to bring Eluane next to a dog while it was "working".... Pam had two dogs that came before Eluane. So as soon as those 2 dogs were put away, was when I came out with just Eluane and myself to get her confident. As soon as I got near the goats she wanted to be with me and she saw indeed this is "a safe zone" and that's when she started getting really interested in the stock. It was after 3 minutes of alone time with me, Eluane and the goats that Pam came and trained us right away (which is the video).... And since the Little E did so well, Pam thought I could handle training without my Little E and that I might pick up on things. Wrooooong, bless Pam! I was a COMPLETE MESS!!!!!

Thank you, Terrecar, for the congrats; I am one lucky person having Pam help me out! As for goats, Pam told me Boer goats can take hyper-amped BCs and they can tolerate a lot of chasing and lunging. Usually this is a very big problem with agility BCs who are just being exposed to stock for the very first time. Pam and I have been discussing all the "scary" cases that I've seen online, lol! And she always says even for farm-bred BCs she starts out with goats then progresses to the sheep. She said some dogs can make the smooth transition very quickly, some take longer because they are way too amped and need to learn control. However, I have seen the Boer goats scatter when stressed. When Pam first let them out, they were resisting and kept wanting to go inside the shed instead of coming out to the field. So she had to get one of her trainee dogs to force them out. And I could tell when I was alone with the goats without Eluane and without Pam, that they were starting to stress because I was getting in the way of the Trainee dog too, adding to the general chaos

On my laaaamb obsession, to prove what a big silly I am, I told Pam that I wanted to try Eluane on lambs, ignorant me, because Eluane is extremely gentle and I thought she would do really well with lambs (thinking she might be scared of adult goats and adult sheep)...haha, little did I know. Little E just flew! I am so happy and thrilled for her. Our next visit we will be trying sheeeeeep, I can't wait for this! I'm so excited. I looove sheep. But kooky me still wants to try the lambs someday, when I finally become "trainable" and learn my directions....Eluane has really sweet instincts (very careful, very sensitive yet fast) with baby animals so I have a hunch that Eluane might really be good with the baby lambs.... Learning how to work stock is just so fun with Pam, my Dad and Little E.

[juliepoudrier]

But kooky me still wants to try the lambs someday, when I finally become "trainable" and learn my directions....Eluane has really sweet instincts (very careful, very sensitive yet fast) with baby animals so I have a hunch that Eluane might really be good with the baby lambs.... Learning how to work stock is just so fun with Pam, my Dad and Little E.

Lambs are best left to more experienced dogs and handlers. Many dogs won't even work lambs at first because the lambs don't act "normal." Older lambs that behave more like regular sheep are one thing, but little baby lambs really are confusing for many dogs (not to mention that if they're young enough then the dog has to contend not only with lambs that don't react normally, if at all, to a dog, but also mamas who see a threat to their babies and decide to do something about it. <--not a good thing for dogs who lack experience or confidence. Lastly, lambs are quite fragile in many respects, and while you might feel that Eluane would be gentle with them, I have seen more than one lamb get seriously hurt--broken bones--when run over by a ewe who is trying to protect it from the dog. Little lambs should be worked with skill and caution.) Just an FYI and I'm sure Pam already told you that, but in case not....

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Terrecar-NO! goats do not normally flock well. The dog MUST work to keep the together until they are quite used to being worked. Even then they will split if the dog is not paying attention to them. Additionally after about 3 dogs they will often test the dog's mettle.

I love working goats. They handle more like cattle and the lower reactivity is great for dogs and people learning the first few times. But they WILL take on a dog and I've seen many a dog the owner called 'powerful' tuck tail and run when confronted with a pissy goat!

[Cynthia P]

Pam,

at our trial two years ago we set 3 goats for one of the handlers. The poor dog took one look at them and ran all the way down the field, past the handler and to the truck! Never seen goats before and that was certainly not right in her mind!

You could tell they were goats because of the "whiteness" but it was fun to watch...My husband was holding and said the dog did a WTF????

Took a while for my dogs to work goats, but i have used them for various students...should use them more

Cynthia

[terrecar]

I can't say I blame the dog. A friend whose kennel I sometimes "kennel sat" while they were out of town had a LOT of goats. I found it a little unnerving when they all converged on me as I stepped out into the pasture. I guess they were looking for food, but I thought they were plotting to kill me.

[ShesMaggie]

Well, getting mixed up, turned around, yanked about by the instructor, falling over the sheep, getting trampled, slipping on dooodoos, forgetting your name and who you are and what the heck you are doing in this bedlam and many many other interesting things is part and parcel of beginning in sheep herding .

I remember it was a big day when I felt confident enough to wear shorts for herding instead of long trousers, because I trusted Bonnie not to rush the horned ram past me.

So glad to see someone else say this. We started lessons in April...OMG what a bumbling idiot I was (am). Am finally getting the hang of it (a little) but am still not up to the point of wearing shorts yet!

[bcnewe2]

You could tell they were goats because of the "whiteness" but it was fun to watch...

What does this mean?

[Cynthia P]

The boer goats stay much whiter than sheep, much brighter. So from the handlers post they sure looked different. The NC and Dorset and their respective crosses are a little beige, so when you put the goats in with them...they are very white!

goats also seem to put an unruley dog in its place quite quickly. Nothing like stock correcting your dog

Cynthia

[Serena+Eluane B.C.]

Actually, Julie, I was referring to the more juvenile lambs, the ones who can be separated from the mother and have independence. Anytime you bring in a Mama into the equation (both human and animal) you can have one fierce equation to deal with I have indeed grabbed and tried to hold off a clueless young German Shepherd running toward my Eluane with all the force of a Football tackler, haha! NO DOG IS ALLOWED TO RUN AT my little E. There is the playful frisky run towards my dog which is perfectly acceptable, but one kind of running I WILL NEVER!! ALLOW!!! Besides I think, if I remember Tea correctly when I talked with her way back in January, she was explaining a few things to me about lambs. Why they have different seasons, the feeding schedules plus separating all very young lambs and their Mamas away from the rest of the flock until the lambs are old enough. So definitely, Julie, what you explained adds the detail for the lamb scenario.

Pam is a wonderful "Tell It Fast and Straight", unlike my endless blathering lol! Pam keeps it simple- just said lambs are very craaaaazy, just crazy, too crazy, and I immediately understood. Before my visit to the farm, I was just worried about the actual size of the animal and of Eluane's timidity, but what a happy, thrilling time we had at the farm on her first try....

With Eluane in terms of how sensitive she is with baby animals and children, she really, really reads them well. she has never jumped on ANY child, toddler or babies- knows the calming signals instinctively in calming them... I have neighborhood children who are absolutely terrified of dogs (their Mom is extremely dog-phobic so the kids catch on to this), but Eluane uses a very affectionate and very careful soft approach, and gradually they can actually come up to her. She does this even with me being several yards away... Babies, toddlers, kids love her, and Eluane has always had that very strong mothering, nurturing instinct..... On a silly tangent, heck, her favorite fetch toys remain intact for years down to the very stitching, and she will lick and curl up to them too after being finished playing with them I just think Eluane just miiiight have potential with baby animals more than she ever could with adult stock...She is far too old (too much catchup time)and cannot meet the endurance, stamina for strong, fast mature animals "in-the-field". Anyway, with the lambs, this will not be until we've had tons of training/exposure to adult stock etc. to test this out. Most important is to cover the foundations and all the elements thoroughly. You can't get to square 500 without being able to even finish square .005, lol!

She'sMaggie, lol, I am so clueless and mixed up and feeling bad for the goats when I keep falling on them, that I don't even notice whether I step on doo-doo or not Who knows, I probably got quite the payload on my shoes....