14 replies to this topic

[glennkopp]

Susie is a 3 year old cattle bred Border Collie. Most of her work has been on cattle, where she works quick and tight with a lot of bite. She had no real outrun two months ago. We've been working hard to slow her down and widen her out. We've also taken some bite out of her so she can start trialing on sheep. Unfortunately, we don't have any cattle trials in the Northeast.

My link

[toney]

Very nice- it's a shame there are no cattle trials in your area- she seems like she could do both sheep and cattle well.

[Maja]

Suzie seems a very nice dog!

I hope people with better knowledge will correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that she needs a command of some sort for the lift and fetch. She does the outrun, lift and fetch on one command "away" or "come bye", which I think might give her a wrong idea of what a flank command is. But I may be wrong -perhaps it is some other approach. The sheep seem to be much heavier that average trial sheep. Having heavy sheep myself I know it's important to consider both from the dog's point of view and the handler's.

I was also a bit confused about the 'here" command. I think the "there" command" was "stop and face the sheep" but the "here" command seemed to be be when she should have been doing a flank, but maybe I am wrong.

Maja

[glennkopp]

Thank you toney, hopefully next summer we can do some travelling and get to some cattle trials in Iowa or down south.

Thank you for your comments Maja. You're pretty well correct on all points. When I give an 'away' or 'come by' for the outrun, our default is to get to balance and bring the stock. If I want her to stop before balance, I'll use a 'there'. If I want her to continue the flank, I'll give a second 'away" or 'come by'. It may not be the best way, but often when we are gathering cattle, I can't see the stock or Susie, so I expect her to find them, stop at balance, and bring them to me. If I have no idea where the stock are, I'll use a 'hunt em up', with the same expectation, except that, she can choose the direction. I'm sure I confuse her by changing my approach between farm work (few commands) and trial work (many commands), but we are figuring it out together.

You're also correct on the 'here' command. It is my crutch for inside flanks. In general, 'here' means 'come to me'. When teaching the inside flanks, I would use 'here away' or 'here come bye' to get her moving in the correct direction. She has learned that when driving, I use 'here' to get her moving in my direction, and then I will give a 'there' to stop and approach the stock, or I will give a flank command to continue the flank. It is a poor use of 'here', but I know she will stop and come toward me, even when I'm not confident she'll take the 'away' or 'come bye' on the inside. I need to stop using 'here' and start trusting my dog. We are both a work in progress.

Glenn

[glennkopp]

I forgot to mention my heavy Romneys. They have been very nice for training because things never get to fast or wild. I like that they can be stubborn and stand up to the dogs, especially when the ewes have lambs. We get to work on using calm, quiet power. They are not the best for preparing to trial, so we go to a friends once a week, where we work lighter Barbados and Katahdins.

Glenn

[Maja]

That's great that Susie can practice on lighter sheep. I had heavy sheep at home and then Bonnie got so much quiet power and push that the sheep were all over the field before she did anything at all . We got that under control finally with geese.

Again, I am no expert,but the use of 'here' the way you describe with away seems more or less what the teachers would tell me to do, except I'd be supposed to use "here", and after she turns add 'away'. If Susie has a good idea about driving then often if the stock are drifting somewhere she will turn her head in that direction, if so, it is a good moment to give a flank command without the "here". With slow moving stock you don't have to rush with flank commands so you may be wait and see if she will turn her head in the direction you want to send her.

I suppose the variability in the flank command the way you describe is none the less consistent for Susie. I do have situations where I can't see the dog and I have to trust her to do what needs to be done.

Maja

[glennkopp]

Susie's 'lie down' has become pretty unreliable at trials and clinics, so I started using a whistle a week ago. She is taking to it well. I know it won't be the same with lighter sheep and outside distractions, but it's a good start. Here is Susie practicing a figure 8.

Susie Figure 8

[juliepoudrier]

You didn't ask, but I thought I'd comment anyway. Are you aware that the tone of your lie down whistle changed from the start of the video to the end? You started out with a low tone, then around 3 minutes in the video, your lie down whistle was a significantly (to my ear) higher tone, and by 4 minutes you had gone back to a lower tone. She will do better if you can blow the same tone consistently.

Second, consider your whistles in terms of context for transitioning to whistles for other commands and what you're trying to communicate to your dog. Your whistle is short and low. How well will that carry over a longer distances? How will you combine that with the whistles for steady, there, etc.?

Generally a lie down whistle is a longer, sharper tone, and then it can be shortened further to be a "take time/steady" or "there" command. For example, my lie down is a "wheeeeooo." (The latter part is a really short tail--not a drawn out "ooooh.") If I do a short, sharp "whee" the dog takes it as a steady if fetching or driving, or steady/there if flanking. It's a logical transition for the dog because what it hears is the first part of the lie down whistle, which will automatically cause the dog to gear down in anticipation of the stop. When the rest of the whistle doesn't come, the dog keeps moving, but has slowed down, which is what you want with a "take time" command. So if my dog is running the sheep down the fetch and I give a sharp tweet (the first part of the lie down), the dog should gear down to a trot; a second tweet should bring the dog to a walk. At a walk, additional tweets remind the dog to keep that pace. If I want a lie down, I give the whole whistle. (The same principle applies to flank whistles--the first part of the flank whistle will give me a half flank; the whole whistles is interpreted by the dog to continue flanking until I tell it to stop; faster whistles say go faster; slower, more drawn out whistles serve to slow and, usually, widen the dogs.)

I probably didn't explain that very well, but maybe you get the idea. Choose whistle commands that give you the flexibility to alter them to be able to better communicate with your dog under a range of circumstances and requirements.

If you're practicing for trials it might also help to sometimes work her on fewer sheep (and maybe you do, but your videos show you working the larger group). She will need to push a lot less, and if she understands about rating herself or pushing on a trial-size group vs. the a big group, you'll have better luck on the lighter sheep at trials (and of course a steady command that is similar to your lie down can help you to steady her on lighter sheep).

J.

[glennkopp]

Thank you, Julie. That's a lot of great information, very well explained. I am the worst with whistles. I think I'm getting a good consistent tone when practicing, but when I get out with the dog and sheep, there's no telling what will come out. I need to practice, practice, practice. I will start figuring out my flank whistles (even though I'm in no rush to implement them), so that I have clear distinct whistles for each command. I'm lucky when I can get a high-low or low-high. It scares me to think about drawing out whistles, and speeding up, and half whistles. Hopefully, it will come with time and lots of practice. And hopefully, I won't screw my dog up too badly.

I will start working groups of three. This group has gotten very heavy, but they lighten up well, with a strong draw back to the flock, when split up.

Thank you, again. I will refer back to your post as I move forward with my whistles.

Glenn

[Maja]

And I was just thinking about Suzie today and wondering how she is doing .

I had this thought today, about figure eight - today I was showing my friends Bonnie's work using figure eight and geese, and Bonnie attempted 3 times to go on away when I was sending her on come by. This is very unusual for her. I used to think that figure 8 or slalom was a very good exercise, but now I was thinking, is there something about it that I should use caution with it? Maybe practice it sparingly? Maybe Bonnie just had a shorted circuit for a moment? It's related to this topic so i thought I'd ask here rather than start a new topic.

This is so good when people post videos and with the comments we can learn from it a lot.

Glenn, you are so quiet in your handling. I tend to yell so much all the time.

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

Maja,
It's possible that Bonnie was anticipating the exercise and so trying to go in the direction she thought was needed. Hard to say without actually seeing it....

J.

[Maja]

Julie,

Thank you, I think you are right. Bonnie is the anticipating sort of dog - the downside of her dying to please. That's why any exercise I do I must vary it (but also the chores, which must artificially vary)and put it aside after a while, so that she does not do this very thing.

Maja

[glennkopp]

A little video of Susie's daily routine. She starts off holding some bulls and steers while I feed. She was a little pushier than needed, so we did some reinforcement at the end to remind her where she's supposed to be standing. Then we worked some pigs. This was just the second time for her and the pigs, so they're trying to figure each other out. These pigs will soon be going on the trailer, so Susie needs a little practice. We finish with Susie and her co-workers. They don't really care to play with her, but they get along well enough.

All comments are welcome.

Susie cows, pigs, friends

Glenn

[Maja]

My, what an immaculate farm! The three dogs look like "hey guys, the boss is watching, let's look like we're well behaved!"

Lovely Susie!

maja

[Liz P]

That's a good dog you've got there. It was nice meeting you this weekend. Maybe we will run into each other at another trial.