19 replies to this topic

[3CrazyBorderCollies]

I've been training my first border collie for the last 5 years and have always encountered the same problem with a lack of focus. My instructors and I have tried several different methods to keep her interested in me. We've tried making me seem more interesting, having the people ignore her, rewarding her for staying with me. I have even taken her to focus seminars and worked with them constantly and it still didn't work well. We did manage to get focus on me most of the time by keeping a lot of handler focus in a course.

For a while is seemed to work until I took her to her first few trials. She ran and visited everyone in the ring and would not stay with me no matter what I tried to do. I didn't chase and I called her name, but she still insisted to run out the ring to visit the crowd.

I stopped working with her for a while now, but I don't want to give up on her. She's great at what she does, when she wants to do it. I hope someone as some advice that might help on keeping focus on me and not everything around her.

[waffles]

For a while is seemed to work until I took her to her first few trials. She ran and visited everyone in the ring and would not stay with me no matter what I tried to do. I didn't chase and I called her name, but she still insisted to run out the ring to visit the crowd.

I don't know what other focus problems you are having but this to me is just a lack of a solid recall. It should be fine for a dog to look at other things besides you if you aren't asking her to do something at that very moment(I don't know if you are referring to obedience trials or agility). If she isn't engaged with you during training then you can shorten your sessions, up your rewards (something new, super smelly, etc).

However, what you describe with her running off and not coming when called is just a recall that needs to be worked on more. If you are at a trial and need her to be near you and you don't want to crate her then teach her a good solid place command on a mat or dog bed. I wouldn't want or expect my dog to stare endlessly at me no matter where we are; place commands or a leash work wonders in these situations.

[Root Beer]

I recommend that you check out Control Unleashed. The program is designed for exactly what you describe.

If you are interested, I recommend you get the Control Unleashed Puppy book. The exercises are the same as in the regular Control Unleashed book, along with a few others, but the book is much more user-friendly than the original. Everything in the book is applicable to adult dogs.

Control Unleashed is a different approach to focus. I've had tremendous success with it. You might want to check it out, particularly the Give Me a Break game.

[rushdoggie]

I recommend that you check out Control Unleashed. The program is designed for exactly what you describe.

If you are interested, I recommend you get the Control Unleashed Puppy book. The exercises are the same as in the regular Control Unleashed book, along with a few others, but the book is much more user-friendly than the original. Everything in the book is applicable to adult dogs.

Control Unleashed is a different approach to focus. I've had tremendous success with it. You might want to check it out, particularly the Give Me a Break game.

^^^

Seconded (I feel like a broken record sometimes, but there is really good stuff in there)

[3CrazyBorderCollies]

I don't know what other focus problems you are having but this to me is just a lack of a solid recall. It should be fine for a dog to look at other things besides you if you aren't asking her to do something at that very moment(I don't know if you are referring to obedience trials or agility). If she isn't engaged with you during training then you can shorten your sessions, up your rewards (something new, super smelly, etc).

However, what you describe with her running off and not coming when called is just a recall that needs to be worked on more. If you are at a trial and need her to be near you and you don't want to crate her then teach her a good solid place command on a mat or dog bed. I wouldn't want or expect my dog to stare endlessly at me no matter where we are; place commands or a leash work wonders in these situations.

It's not necessary that she doesn't come to me when called, it's that, let's say, when I take her over a serious of jumps, she will stop listening to my commands and leaves to find someone to visit.

[waffles]

Well, then I would definitely get CU as others have suggested. It is a great book (I don't have the puppy one) and would definitely help. A more creative way of thinking about issues especially pertaining to agility are in the book.

I thought, the way you described it, the main issue was just not coming when called after getting distracted.

[SS Cressa]

Just curious. Are you sure it is not stress related? If i ask my boy for too much he starts visiting at least that is what i noticed or think.

[SecretBC]

What is your relationship like outside of agility? Is she ready to play with you at any time or does she decide when you play? When you do play, do you end the game or does she?

Agility is a game. If your dog doesn't know how to play with you outside of agility it makes sense that she wouldn't be all that receptive to playing with you around equipment.

I do agree with Cressa that a lot of it sounds like it could be stress, although five years is an awful long time to still be experiencing such a thing even in training.

You likely need to step way back to the beginning and start rewarding for very short sequences. Incorporate agility obstacles into your play time. Make sure you are absolutely clear with your handling cues, as this can turn off a dog like yours as well and give them an excuse to check out.

What makes your dog go absolutely bonkers? You need to find a way to incorporate that into agility and transfer the value to the equipment and playing with you.

Don't suppose you have video?

[arf2184]

Can you keep her focus outside of agility? I also suspect its more stress than lack of focus.

I would also work on recall. Remember not to call your dog if you know she's not going to come...you're only teaching her she doesn't always have to listen. Just go get her.

If your dog is like Meg...she doesn't want to come because she's ignoring you for a reason; she's stressed and you are part of the cause of that stress.

You may have tried all these things, but here is what we do:

Meg is four years old and has been training in agility for 2 years. In other types of training, I have Meg's complete attention. In agility...not so much.

She's my first agility dog and I make mistakes and sometimes I'm not always totally clear in communicating. Meg is very precise in pretty much everything she does. She will check out if she doesn't know exactly what I want. She's a bit shy so she prefers to sniff the ground and ignore me rather than run off and go visit people, but same idea.

One of the things that helps (though not full proof) is to ignore all mistakes, mine or hers. Just try to keep going. If its a repeat mistake in training, then we can go back later and try to fix it. Another thing is to stop and play in the middle of a run, for no apparent reason.

Meg also checks out if there are too many jumps...I think she gets bored with them. She'll jump on her own in other situations (over furniture, over my other dog, etc), but in agility she prefers the A-Frame, dog walk, table, or even a hoop. She loves Frisbee though so to make jumps more fun for her I toss the Frisbee after a series in practice. It also helps speed her up when she knows she'll get to chase the Frisbee soon.

[gooddogs74]

Premack is your friend. Pay attention to how you are increasing your criteria and your rate of reinforcement. Keeping written records and videotaping your training can really pay off. Control Unleashed is wonderful and the "puppy" book is much easier to read than the original. I also enjoy Crate Games (DVD)for focus and transfer of value to the work.

[3CrazyBorderCollies]

Cressa: Angel's always ran off to visit people. Over the past 5 years, she has always ran off to visit people. The local kennel club at the time was fairly new to agility so when she did run off and jumped into people's laps, they would play with them, 'rewarding' them for running off. It could be stress-related, but I'm really not sure.

SecretBC: She always has her eyes on me at home. In classes, her focus has improved a lot from when we first started training. She'd stay with me through several short sequences and get greatly rewarded for them.

As with play, she has her select toys around the yard she can play with. When i have a toy, she does want to play with me, but she will run away from me when she does get the toy. I'll usually end the game with her.

Angel was also my first agility dog as well. I know there were a lot of mistakes I had trained with her that are going to be hard to fix. Here's the link to her second trial ever, day 2. One of my agility instructors asked me to wait for her to come back to me, instead of running after her.

[Jumpin Boots]

As with play, she has her select toys around the yard she can play with. When i have a toy, she does want to play with me, but she will run away from me when she does get the toy. I'll usually end the game with her.

When you are using a toy to work with your dog, the reward shouldn't be the toy; it should be playing with you. The above statement you made makes me think that Angel is unsure where the reward is, or atleast, that it isn't always with you. I would think maybe this is transferring over to food rewards as well. If you don't think her socializing around the ring is nerve related, maybe she is looking for who is going to give her a reward? How do you act when you are rewarding her, whether with food or toys? Do you act like it's the best thing ever? Like you are excited about it? Are you engaged with her when playing or treating?

My dogs all have very high play drive, but it didnt' start that way; initially Renoir wanted very little to do with toys. I can now pick up almost anything; offer him to tug, say 'Ready' and games on. But it has very little to do with they toy; it's the fact that I am offering to play with him. It took work to get him there, starting out with a toy that he only got to play with when I was playing too. If you want me to go into all the steps I used I'd be happy to share.

[3CrazyBorderCollies]

When you are using a toy to work with your dog, the reward shouldn't be the toy; it should be playing with you. The above statement you made makes me think that Angel is unsure where the reward is, or atleast, that it isn't always with you. I would think maybe this is transferring over to food rewards as well. If you don't think her socializing around the ring is nerve related, maybe she is looking for who is going to give her a reward?

I think with the reward at the trial, I think you could be right with the fact that she is looking else where for a reward. When she was younger, up until she was probably 3, anytime she'd run off to the people and jump into their laps, they would play with her and grab her until I got to her. Our kennel club no longer does this, but she's done it ever since.

I do make a big deal when she comes to me and give her lots of treats and praise. At home, toys work great with training, but as soon as I go to classes or the trials, even her favorite toys aren't important to her. Even after she does stay and I do reward her, she'll still try to run off.

[bcnewe2]

NOt making light of your situation, I see that as the reward of greeting others has higher value than playing with you.
Now, with that in mind have you ever thought of making her a therapy dog? She sure looks like a dog that would thrive on that!

Just an idea.

[Maralynn]

I think you've got a couple issues going on here - it's very self rewarding for her to run over to people and she's learned that she can.

How do you practice? Can you set up training scenarios like the trial ones?

Can you have people nearby every practice run? But then just take her out and end before she has a chance to run over to anyone - maybe just go out do one piece of equipment, reward her and leave. And people ignore her. No engagement at all from others (petting, eye contact, touch, acknowledgement) unless you have first released her to go say hi.

With my "people, people, people!!!" dog I'd have someone come out while I was playing with her and she was most engaged with me. I'd stop the game, tell her to go say hi, they'd give her a little bit of attention then stop and I'd call her back to me and get right back into the game. She's gone from a dog that couldn't wait to go say hi to someone to one that will say hi only because I tell her to - and even the it's only a half-hearted greeting because she wants to continue with the game

[SecretBC]

Thanks for sharing the video. It always helps.

What I see in the video is stress behavior. In this case, it started at the weaves -- which I assumed it would, when I saw how well you guys started. She missed her weaves, you brought her back to re-do them and then all hell broke loose.

You are the person who makes her do stressful things, so she is looking for outlets in the people around her to relieve this stress. This was only confirmed (in her mind) when you brought her back to the same place to make her re-do an obstacle.

Dogs like this do best with receiving *no corrections* for a time. They need to learn to run with us and stay with us -- if they miss an obstacle it's likely because of a handling error we made, so just keep going. You also need to work to make yourself more of a reward, because she needs to find value in you vs. you being the source of stress. I could sense your frustration through the video -- If I got that read from you, imagine what your sensitive dog was thinking. "Mom is nuts!"

I went through that whole, "I'll play with the toy and then run off to chew it on my own" business with Secret when I was working on building her play/toy drive. I would walk her down, retrieve the toy and then walk back to the spot where I was when we were playing together. If she wanted to play with the toy, she needed to play with me or the toy went away. She figured it out quickly enough -- these days if she goes and lays down with her toy it's a signal that she's had enough. I get the toy and put it away.

[alligande]

After watching your video, I agree with everyone that said stress, the first part of your run was lovely, it was when you asked for the redo that that things went wrong. I have a dog who is not that motivated to play agility and I have learned that if he leaves me to go visiting it is because something is bothering him and he is looking for a way out of the game. When he is happy and things are going well he stays with me and we have fun together. So I never go back and correct a course error, we just keep moving forwards even if we are going the wrong way... I try not to show any disappointment it is all fun. I know this is easier said than done, and for me easy as I have a really motivated young dog who is my full time agility partner but it really does work.

[ChantalB]

Stress, it's a hard thing. A lot of times people see the zooms an the visiting as too social of a dog but more likely than not it's stress related. Like others are saying start doing practice runs/running feo, and if she misses the weaves keep goon or better yet, if the entries aren't solid or she has weave issues skip them all together and work on them seperately at home. Find out what obstacles trigger stress and watch out for them. It's really hard to mask true emotions from dogs, they are masters at picking up the sublest disappointment, etc from us, so you haveri try your hardest to be "who cares! If you miss it" until he gets over you being a stressor.

Also when she recalls back to you after leaving be super happy, take the closest jump (she seems to enjoy them) and end the run on that recall/jump note. Just run right out of the ring and throw a party!

[ChantalB]

Also . How about going to trials/practices nr to run agility but to work o playing? Play on the sidelines, establish yourself as the only source of contact and fun don't let her visit much. Ask her for ablittle tug session before releasing her to say a very quick "hi" then call her back and reward.

I would call my dog very high drive but tug drive took a lot of work. He'd tug home but for a second at class and never at trials. It took a whole year to develop that intense drive for tugging (ie, me being the highest reward) and it's still not where I want it. It takes a lot of work.

I think if you develop the drive an relationship a lot stronger away from agility you can bring it over to trials again.

[3CrazyBorderCollies]

Thanks for all the great advice! I plan on taking her back to classes soon, and will definitely use these tips.

I have noticed that once she messes something up, she stresses about it and begins visiting. She loves jumping and the tunnels and stresses over the weaves, the teeter, and 2o2o. She loves the contact equipment except the fact that she has to stop at the bottom.

Her side lines games have always been tugging and giving her tons of treats for ignoring everything around her. And then I'd always give her a back rub, she ADORES that.