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Harold Camping,Jim Jones, The Mayan Calendar and the AKC


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#1 Donald McCaig

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:46 PM

Dear Doggers,

Those who, like myself, have puzzled why otherwise rational Doggers continue breeding for
Conformation might profit from Festingers "When Prophecy Fails".

Donald McCaig

#2 terrecar

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 06:04 PM

Yeah. Cognitive dissonance.



#3 juliepoudrier

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:31 PM

Wow, and was the dog who was swaying in the back (is if it didn't have the strength behind to hold itself upright) when it walked the one who won? How sad.

BTW, is Donald's reference to a book?

J.

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#4 terrecar

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:54 PM

BTW, is Donald's reference to a book?


Yes. I must confess to having never read it though.
http://www.amazon.co...38083193&sr=8-3

#5 TEC

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 09:00 PM

Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910) said,

"I know that most men — not only those considered clever, but even those who are very clever, and capable of understanding most difficult scientific, mathematical, or philosophic problems — can very seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as to oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficulty — conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives."

This is a kind of confirmation bias (play on words intended), held even in the face of objective evidence to the contrary. Due to the bias poor political, military, organizational decisions are made. -- TEC

PS -- Wait a minute, we aren't clear of the Mayan Calendar thing yet. :huh:
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#6 terrecar

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:30 PM

The Tolstoy quotation is so appropriate. It is hard to explain, otherwise, how someone can look at the German Shepherds in the video and think this is a sound animal appropriate for breeding. Honestly, when I look at these dogs, because I love the breed, I start to get angry at how willfully stupid people can be.

#7 Pam Wolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:47 PM

People are going to do what they want, often for money and probably secondly for prestiege. You cannot change another's mindset by forcing them. Insults and demeaning comments only serve to strenghten other's resolve to prove you wrong
I'd rather be a shepherd than a sheepdogger

#8 Smalahundur

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:24 PM

I do have the feeling that as far the German shepherd is concerned the tide seems to turn. People don´t want dogs looking like crippled hyena´s, whatever some breed standard says. Almost a feeling like in "the emperor´s new clothes" the realization seems to dawn that (apart from being ugly as sin) these kind of hips/back are completely dysfunctional.

"Milli manns og hests og hunds hangir leyniþráður"


#9 Tommy Coyote

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 09:21 AM

People are going to do what they want, often for money and probably secondly for prestiege. You cannot change another's mindset by forcing them. Insults and demeaning comments only serve to strenghten other's resolve to prove you wrong

That sounds like comething Confucious would have said. But it's true. People are going to do what they are going to do.

#10 Eileen Stein

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 12:37 PM

People are going to do what they want, often for money and probably secondly for prestiege. You cannot change another's mindset by forcing them. Insults and demeaning comments only serve to strenghten other's resolve to prove you wrong


Tolstoy is right, but this is not. If this were true, Chinese women would still have bound feet. And with five minutes' reflection, you could think of scores of examples closer to home.

That sounds like comething Confucious would have said. But it's true. People are going to do what they are going to do.


True, but they are not always going to do what they have always done.

#11 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

You cannot change another's mindset by forcing them.

Strongly held religious (insert Donald's analogy), cultural, and cult beliefs are difficult to change and will never change if no one speaks out.

In the world of breeding, humans like being able to see what they can accomplish. Take for example the diversity within canis lupus familiaris (6" to 34" at the shoulder).


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#12 Pam Wolf

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:02 PM

Speaking out is fine, demeaning others more often than not only causes resistance
I'd rather be a shepherd than a sheepdogger

#13 Eileen Stein

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:10 PM

Do you think Pedigree Dogs Exposed "demeaned others"? Do you think the breeders targeted thought they were being demeaned? Do you see any signs that it has changed minds, or changed the practices it targeted?

#14 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:17 PM

Speaking out is fine, demeaning others more often than not only causes resistance

More often than not, the target audience is not the one(s) being used as an example.
More specifically, what is posted here is not just for those of us who post but for all the anonymous readers.

I do agree the method of the message can be as important as the message itself.

There's nothing I believe in more strongly than getting young people interested in science and engineering, for a better tomorrow, for all humankind.

Bill Nye


#15 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Do you think Pedigree Dogs Exposed "demeaned others"? Do you think the breeders targeted thought they were being demeaned? Do you see any signs that it has changed minds, or changed the practices it targeted?

I know this was a rhetorical question but I find it ironic that Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog posted this last Friday.

Based on the studies already out there, we stated in Pedigree Dogs Exposed that the average mutt lives longer than the average purebred. It caused a furore - and still, today, the dog fora are full of breeders stating categorically that it this a myth. I've discovered that it's pointless to provide a long list of references which show that they are wrong. They simply won't believe it.


To read the rest go to UK crossbreeds live longer than purebreds posted this last Friday.

There's nothing I believe in more strongly than getting young people interested in science and engineering, for a better tomorrow, for all humankind.

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#16 Sue R

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

Do you think Pedigree Dogs Exposed "demeaned others"?

No, but I think it was brutally honest.

Do you think the breeders targeted thought they were being demeaned?

Yes, I do think so.

Do you see any signs that it has changed minds, or changed the practices it targeted?

Yes, I do read of signs that it has changed minds, not among the breeders, though - but among the general populace. And, as a result of that education and the resultant public outcry and bad publicity, there have been some changes implemented in a few KC rules, which *should* result in changing some of the practices it targeted.

I don't think the breeders were the target audience of the educational aspect of the show, or the population that the show hoped to influence directly - I think it was the general, pet-loving population that was the target audience. By educating and influencing that audience, the KC and its breeders could be influenced by the reaction of the general public, which I think has happened at least to a small extent. I think it's a step in the right direction.

I think that when people here are honest about their opinions about mentioned (or generic) breeders, they are hoping to do the same - to influence by educating the "consumer" or potential dog/puppy purchaser. If such opinions have any effect on the less-responsible breeder to reconsider their ways, then that's a big (unexpected but appreciated) bonus.

A company used to advertise on TV (back when we had commercial TV in our home) and always said that their best customer was an educated customer. That concept has stuck with me. There's a lot of truth in that, at least for an ethical company/producer/supplier.
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#17 Sue R

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:33 PM

I know this was a rhetorical question but I find it ironic that Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog posted this last Friday...To read the rest go to UK crossbreeds live longer than purebreds posted this last Friday.

The sad thing is that, oftentimes, people will believe what they *want* to believe, especially if they feel it is in their best interests or supports their choices. How is it said, something along the lines of not wanting to hear the facts if they contradict someone's opinion?
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#18 geonni banner

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:33 PM

I think Pedigree Dogs Exposed has had an impact, and will have positive fallout in years to come. I have heard my Pug loving friend's daughter argue with her mother about how that breed is too extreme to the detriment of its health and happiness. Mom may not change, but the daughter has. She will make different choices when choosing a dog. They have both seen Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Mom has a head-in-the-sand , I-don't-want-to-talk-about-it-attitude. The daughter learned and adjusted her POV.

How many households of BYBs and show breeding families watched that program? You can bet some of the kids started asking questions. The parents may take a shut-up-and-eat-your-mac-&-cheese-and-get-the-dogs-in-the-Winnebago attitude, but the kids will be thinking. And heck, some of the parents may see the error of their ways. Demeaned? Some of them may feel that way. Some will just file the ideas in the "crackpot file" along with global warming. Evolution at work, I say, on more levels than one.


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#19 Sue R

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:39 PM

To read the rest go to UK crossbreeds live longer than purebreds posted this last Friday.

I read that entire article and found the information about the Border Collie of particular interest. I think it would be worthwhile for all here to read it. Very interesting!

Thanks, Mark, for posting this!
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#20 terrecar

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:05 PM

I am inclined to agree with Eileen regarding the none-too-touchy-feely nature of effecting change. However, there is probably some merit to the idea that 'some' people will become more firmly entrenched in their dogma in response to criticism, at least initially. I can see all of those GSD breeders who breed dogs that walk on their hocks--and who explain that the pronounced rear angulation of the GSD helps him to cover more ground around a flock of sheep--attempting to prove the critics wrong with those inadequate AKC herding titles.

As far as the insults go, my own "willfully stupid" comment was gratis, but I could have expressed my frustration better. However, it was in no way intended as a swipe against all GSD breeders. I do know there are some who are trying to steer the breed away from the extremes (for what it's worth). However, for those who are not... Well, if the shoe fits kind'a thing.


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