91 replies to this topic

[mickif]

won't the fast dogs miss being able to bank the side of the curved tunnel? they sure seem to enjoy it! they might even have a silent bet going to see who can bank the highest .

[rufftie]

i used to love nadac, even tho it isn't readily available in this area. last time i ran it though i was very disappionted to see how hoops had pretty much taken the place of jumps. i agree with those who said that nadac will have to stop calling themselves an agility venue. teeters, tables, tires and now tunnels, perhaps it has something to do with the letter "T".

i have started an agility venue here in W.V. called Furs-A-Flyin Agility which currently offers CPE. i was considering nadac but now it's starting to seem silly.

[Beach BCs]

Wow. I really can't think of any other response. Just wow.

[ChantalB]

My fast dog has never wiped out in a tunell... I suppose it could happen but I would then blame weather. He uses that speed to bank with momentum like every fast dog does.

I wouldn't really call this stuff agility anymore...

[Jumpin Boots]

It is kind of funny to me how some of you sound so bitter about this. Especially those of you who don't even run NADAC any more or never did, if I remember correctly several of you don't but it still seems like your feathers are ruffled by a possible NADAC change. Wow, don't sweat the small stuff; lifes too short.

For those of you that do, but are unhappy about this, you should let Sharon know, either direct email, forum or yahoo. I've had posts in the past that haven't been posted, but have received contact back from her that my 'vote/thought' was taken in. It does seem like this is similar to adding gates, which ended up not happening, so voice it again about this if you like. I for one am going to try it at home, see what my dogs think and after trying it in a small course type setting will then make my judgement and give my thoughts to Sharon. Doesn't mean that I will get my way; if I'm that unhappy with the outcome I'll take my agility money and run elsewhere!

The other thing that seems interesting is how it appears many of you think that the agility associations should be the same?!? If you are saying NADAC doesn't seem like agility any more; well, no, it just doesn't seem like what other associations are doing; but it's still a game to be played with handler/dog teams with equipment. Just like rest of the associations; if I hear someone talking about USDAA agility, I have a preset notion on what the courses will be like. Same with AKC, CPE, etc. I for one, think it's great there are so many venues that you can find a style of course that both you and your dog like and train for success there.

[SecretBC]

As the Kool-aid drinkers have continued to chime in, Sharon has only gotten more resolute about her decision to add barrels. That's kind of how it always goes. She mentions something in passing, you get a few protestors, a whole SLEW of "OMG, I worship the ground you walk on, Sharon!" posters, and then she puffs up and proclaims this new idea to be the *best thing ever* and that it WILL go into effect. Immediately at Funraisers, next year at all trials. It went from, "Clubs will have the option of using barrels," to "Clubs will be required to have at least one barrel."

That's just how NADAC is. Honestly, competitor uproar means nothing to Sharon and she will do what she wants. Hello, look at the hoopla over the VT program (the stupidest idea ever, to integrate VT points with those earned at traditional trials). There was uproar over that and she did it anyhow. That was what ultimately pushed me to start trialing elsewhere. It was too much for me.

The only reason I plan to continue with any NADAC whatsoever at this point is because Kaiser is two Chances runs from NATCH (where he will be the first Alaskan Klee Kai to do so) and Secret only needs seven Chances for hers. Once that's done I see no point in continuing. My oldest, Luke, is ready to start stepping back anyhow.

The reason I'm so vocal and bitter is because I've been a huge NADAC supporter since I started agility. I have defended it more times than I can count to people who left and people who've never even tried it. I can't defend it anymore, because it's no longer "agility" as the world knows it. The changes are becoming laughable. The Kool-aid drinkers are ANNOYING AS HELL. I'm so sick of the, "It should be about having fun with your dog. Awards and titles and Q's shouldn't matter at all," blah, blah, blah. Well guess what, some of us do like a little competition and are vilified in NADAC for saying so.

Sharon's latest about how she doesn't feel it's the "course's responsibility to challenge you" is the newest line of BS to annoy me. Uh.... I haven't been "challenged" by a NADAC course for the last two years. It's the whole reason I started doing bonus lines with Luke, because I was bored out of my mind by the repetitive nature of the courses presented every weekend. If I went to a trial where you were expected to run the same course twice in a row I'd just leave. If I want to practice skills I set up exercises at home and run them several different ways. I go to trials to test myself -- and I expect the courses to challenge and test me. I shouldn't HAVE to have 50' between myself and my dog to feel challenged. The courses at the Elite level should have SOME element of difficulty....

[PSmitty]

It's not the "course's responsibility to challenge you"? Ummm, really?

[SecretBC]

In all its glory:

Hi, group.
I guess I am very surprised by some of the feedback, since "my" view
was totally opposite.
I didn't think that "my" views and challenges were that different from
others, but I guess they are!
First, I thought that the "newbies" would be very bored with double
runs and a "new" obstacle called a barrel. I THOUGHT that the experienced
people would be absolutely excited and LOVE it!!

Just from my viewpoint, I LOVE challenge! But I am a self-motivating
person and I have never accepted "norm" as the defined "best"....

I am intrigued by comments from experienced handlers that the "course"
doesn't challenge them on the second go round. That never occurred to me
that the "course" needed to be what challenged people. I thought that
"people" would challenge themselves!! My reaction would be to handle from a
totally different position, from a closer or further distance, or try for
more speed.

I get more upset with only "one" run.... I can't think of very many
courses in my life that I didn't want to run again.... not just to get a Q,
but to try a different handling position, more speed, less speed, bigger
distance, less distance, tighter turns.... a different handler move to get
better information to the dog for the course....

I never even dreamed that a handler would run a second time and use
the "same" handling position with the same speed, with everything the
"same".......

Dogs are such wonderful creatures because, given the opportunity, they
are always willing to give "challenge" to this sport...!!! That is why we
got into agility is because of the challenge of communicating with a
living creature that would give us feedback on our ability to communicate clear
information to them. If the dog isn't "challenging" then I am guessing
that you can't make time and have an issue with distance. Dogs are vibrant,
amazing creatures when they are taught to not just "accept" the norm, but to
engage life with enthusiasm and vigor.

It is funny to me that "courses" being rerun are called boring... to
me I could run a course over and over and every run would be different and
challenging!! What a thrill to handle from the opposite side, to make all
front crosses a rear cross and vice versa... to run with "no"
crosses............. to test a different verbal.....

I look at a couple of the private emails from competitors that found
it "boring" and in some instances, watching some of those teams "is"
boring............ there is no ZEST, no inspiring flash, just a team keeping
everything under control to get a Q.

I look back and think about my desire for "challenge" and that is
where bonus lines and BIG distance was born.... that is where 100+ run indexes
were born....

I always knew that dogs would give more and more if the handlers were
willing to communicate with enthusiastic and always challenging them with
"new".... None of my dogs ever got bored with this sport and "knock on
wood" we don't have any time issues, or distances issues and any lack of
enthusiasm to learn new things!

NADAC was born from a lack of accepting the "norm" as being
"right".... and EGC and VT and BA.....

In 20 years of teaching camps and seminars, I never allow anyone to
accept the "norm" as the "end" of any training regimen and never stop
challenging yourself to be better............... run faster or handle from many
more positions and more or less distance...........

When did courses become the "challenge" required to keep this sport
exciting? As I think back, I am betting it is that mind set that created the
courses used by other venues to keep the sport "challenging"....

If I went to a trial and saw a barrel for the first time, I would be
jumping with glee... it is a safe obstacle and only requires "HANDLING" to
conquer..... I would be about how I could give clear body language and
verbals to make the "new" performance a FUN and easily understood experience.

As I have thought about this all morning.. it has really clarified so
much for me within this sport.............. a lot of the "issues" that I
just don't understand........ but it never occurred to me that handlers feel
that it isn't "their" responsibility to keep the sport exciting and fun for
the dogs!

I have lots of thoughts today as I try to figure out how NADAC is to
accept the responsibility of being "non-boring" to handlers that are not
"self-motivators" and don't take the challenge of being exciting to their
canine partners and for "them" to be the challenge and exciting part of the
sport...............

I am a very odd ball, because I can run a horseshoe shaped course and
find it exciting!

This does explain why people sometimes leave NADAC because they find
it boring and select another venue that is "more challenging"...............
where the responsibility for challenge and inspiration must come from
"challenging" courses and none of the responsibility for "challenge" comes from
the handlers ability to challenge themselves every time they are a
"partner" to their dogs on a course.

I know in seminars, if you change the handlers position by 5-6 feet,
the course is totally different for the team!! The commands are different,
the body language changes because the path indications change because of
different angles being presented. I have had seminars where the same course
is used for multiple days and we can still present excitement and challenge
by changing the "handler" and their presentation of handling positions and
commands.

I know I watched an hour of video of an international competition
recently and was shocked that every single handler handled from the same
position, the same turns, the same everything............... and yes, the winners
were separated by 100ths of a second.... but there was no change from
handler to handler........... so it did come down to minute degrees of
difference from the dogs....... and the course designs didn't really offer many
options for "different".... the size and color of the dogs changed, but
nothing else really did............. other than some missed contacts and knocked
bars. I am not criticizing I am just saying that I was disappointed in the
absolute consistency of "norm".....

I do like NADAC in that on any given course, you can see dozens of
different handling styles........... and I will watch more closely if any of
those styles change within the same team............ rather disappointing if
a handler always run the exact same way, same style, same
everything...........

I have heard people say that if they do anything "different" is shuts
their dogs down..... and I would have to plead with them to get away from
equipment and get "with" their dog with more exciting and challenging means
of communication. The more challenging the handler is, the more exciting
it is for the dog! To stay engaged with a handler that is fun! A totally
consistent handler who never changing their handling in any way usually
becomes rather boring for the dogs and the dogs either slow down or they do
many more "independent" behaviors to keep it exciting!!

For me to think that "newbies" would find double runs boring because
they haven't had the experience yet to know the intricacies to keep a dog
fully engaged at all times seemed "logical"............... and that
experienced handlers would jump on this with the ability to challenge themselves and
push for more skills and better handling seemed "logical"..............
but the exact opposite happened...............

Great learning experience............... and I wonder just when this
sport changed so radically that handlers should always "be the same" and
repeats are "boring" to those with experience. This sport has become a sport
for "safe" Q's.....

I guess I can say that for those coming to camps... we don't teach
boring or "same"..... and there will be many, many "reruns" of the same
course, while the "handler" is challenged to know 4-5 different ways to run the
same course.

"I" challenge people to "step it up" a bit.............. what can YOU
do to make agility more exciting and fun.... and not put that
responsibility upon a course design..........

If it is the responsibility of the course to create challenge, then
yes, the double run format is never going to work............ it will be very
boring......... and sad....

Sharon, a very abnormal person............. but very self motivating!!

Yeah.... Honestly, I couldn't even respond to that e-mail because it pissed me off so much.

[Laurae]

I don't even run agility and it kind of pisses me off. She deflects what seems to be a lot of criticism by completely belittling those competitors who dare to disagree with her proposed changes. Wow.

[PSmitty]

Wow. Just reading the bolded statements leaves me dumbfounded. Honestly, that makes no sense. The idea that the courses in agility are NOT supposed to challenge you is, well, ridiculous (that's the nice word I came up with). Oh, and I love how she puts it back on the exhibitors. Handlers who get bored with no challenges on the courses (including half the obstacles being gone!), are bad "self motivators" and it's their own fault they're bored and not challenged?

ETA: Plus, what Laura said!

[Rave]

Well that explains why the courses are so easy.

[mickif]

I'm really having a hard time separating my thoughts but here goes in no particular order:

I started in NADAC. Our clubs needed to buy non-slatted contacts, ok, this was done. Then another piece of equipment was taken away, ok. Then hoops were introduced...new equipment, ok, and I do now use hoops for new students to start teaching handling. I ignore the EGC, so know nothing of it. Then the combined VT program comes to be...WHAT? Ok, my hackles went down slightly when a well respected international handler and instructor said, "well, if this is what folks need to do to get titles, then let 'em have it". Now, barrels... so new equipment to buy and train, takes away from time/money spent on more "universal" agility equipment.

I agree with this:
"That's just how NADAC is. Honestly, competitor uproar means nothing to Sharon and she will do what she wants. Hello, look at the hoopla over the VT program (the stupidest idea ever, to integrate VT points with those earned at traditional trials). There was uproar over that and she did it anyhow. That was what ultimately pushed me to start trialing elsewhere. It was too much for me.

The only reason I plan to continue with any NADAC whatsoever at this point is because Kaiser is two Chances runs from NATCH (where he will be the first Alaskan Klee Kai to do so) and Secret only needs seven Chances for hers. Once that's done I see no point in continuing. My oldest, Luke, is ready to start stepping back anyhow.

The reason I'm so vocal and bitter is because I've been a huge NADAC supporter since I started agility. I have defended it more times than I can count to people who left and people who've never even tried it. I can't defend it anymore, because it's no longer "agility" as the world knows it. The changes are becoming laughable. The Kool-aid drinkers are ANNOYING AS HELL. I'm so sick of the, "It should be about having fun with your dog. Awards and titles and Q's shouldn't matter at all," blah, blah, blah. Well guess what, some of us do like a little competition and are vilified in NADAC for saying so.

Sharon's latest about how she doesn't feel it's the "course's responsibility to challenge you" is the newest line of BS to annoy me. Uh.... I haven't been "challenged" by a NADAC course for the last two years. It's the whole reason I started doing bonus lines with Luke, because I was bored out of my mind by the repetitive nature of the courses presented every weekend. If I went to a trial where you were expected to run the same course twice in a row I'd just leave. If I want to practice skills I set up exercises at home and run them several different ways. I go to trials to test myself -- and I expect the courses to challenge and test me. I shouldn't HAVE to have 50' between myself and my dog to feel challenged. The courses at the Elite level should have SOME element of difficulty.... "

There is a reason that "most", for lack of better wording, serious agility competitors are no longer involved with NADAC, many who were there at the inception, many who were judges...

I agree, very little challenge in NADAC. As a friend in another part of the country said, "For the most part, folks here have sort of decided that NADAC is not a venue that does a very good job of challenging the skills of the teams in much of a meaningful way, but the courses are fun to run and in the end that is all that really matters."

So, run for fun and don't worry about spending time working on handling skills .

And last, but not least... starting 1/14 with NADAC, any dog 7 years or older has to run in Veteran's class. Now, I have no issues with running a dog in Veteran when it's time, but having someone dictate when that is just pisses me off.

[Rave]

My dog at 7 was still kicking @ss in very competitive 22" USDAA classes.

[brndlbc]

I'm sure this will land me in trouble some how

Sharon Nelson
"to me I could run a course over and over and every run would be different and
challenging!!"


From a web search:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[PSmitty]

And last, but not least... starting 1/14 with NADAC, any dog 7 years or older has to run in Veteran's class. Now, I have no issues with running a dog in Veteran when it's time, but having someone dictate when that is just pisses me off.

Wow, that would piss me off, too. As Rave said, many, many dogs are competitive in regular classes at 7 and beyond. Heck, most teams don't really start to "gel" until the dog is 4-5, I'd guess. I'll decide when my dog is ready for Veterans.

I'd like to see somebody tell Kristi's Wick this little gem.

[MrSnappy]

I don't do NADAC, but my impression is that NADAC is to agility what AKC herding trials are to stockdog trials. A watered down version of the real thing designed to make people feel good about their lesser accomplishments because they can't perform at the level of their more skilled peers (or facsimiles thereof).

Honestly? When I want to "handle a course in a variety of different ways" I call that "going to agility class." When I pay money to trial, I want to be challenged and I want to win!!

(I usually don't, of course, but it's what I'm striving for. Win I mean - all my poor dogs are handler-challenged! ;-P )

RDM

[PSmitty]

Exactly, RDM.

[airbear]

I'd like to see somebody tell Kristi's Wick this little gem.

That is inSANE!!! 7 is not even middle-aged for most border collies! But maybe it's because they've all been sliding around in tunnels and now they're broken?

[mickif]

I don't do NADAC, but my impression is that NADAC is to agility what AKC herding trials are to stockdog trials. A watered down version of the real thing designed to make people feel good about their lesser accomplishments because they can't perform at the level of their more skilled peers (or facsimiles thereof)

RDM

Even sadder is if folks are only taught "skills" needed for NADAC without them even getting to see/learn/try/understand different handling skills/methods (no, I did not say
systems" , thus never getting to challenge themselves, or their dog, in that way.

[mickif]

I'm sure this will land me in trouble some how

Sharon Nelson
"to me I could run a course over and over and every run would be different and
challenging!!"


From a web search:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Oh my, this is hilarious, thank you for putting it in some strange perspective! Yes, your name will most likely end up on some black list, somewhere . Though, I do set up courses and run them different ways (call me insane) but they are never NADAC courses.