59 replies to this topic

[Liz P]

Two questions I would ask myself...

Do I want another dog?

What happens if I decide I am no longer interested in stock work?

I've read that people are only involved in a particular dog sport for an average of 3 years before they lose interest.

[ObeytheBC]

But what I can't understand is where the satisfaction would be in buying a trained dog to compete in trials with. Isn't the satisfaction in travelling the road to excellence together?

For me, buying a trained dog is not about the satisfaction that I trained or trialed the dog, but is my opportunity to learn from the dog. My current dog (who turns a year old next week) will always know more than me about how to move stock. She will always understand the stock and how to shift her body best. She will always know more than me about what herding is and can be. It is in her mind, body and soul because it is what she does. Now, does that mean she knows what we are doing together - not completely, at least not in each exercise. That is the training part. But since these dogs have such an advantage over me, I need to learn somewhere.

Buying a fully trained dog gives me the oportunity to learn from the dog who knows supremely more than I do. It is a struggle to take a dog as a green as can be novice and teach it. My handling instructors teach me much, but it is the dog I learn from the most. My puppy has taught me a lot about patience and how to handle her; this dog will give me an oportunity to understand what my puppy and I should be doing. And that is why I am planning on purchasing a dog. Every chance I have had to work with an older, more experienced dog, teaches me how to handle myself, handle the stock, and handle the dog better. It teaches me what I should be doing and I in turn can be a better handler for my dog. Whether that be on the farm or in a trial field, whatever situation we may be in, it is about building a better team.

I am hoping that buy adding a trained dog that I can be better for my current and future dogs. I certainly do not plan on purchasing every dog as a trained dog and trial them - that would not hold satisfaction for me. I know that there is a long journey ahead for both dogs and myself - after all, I am the novice in the trained dog relationship - and that is what I am looking forward to.

[ObeytheBC]

Hello, ObeytheBC

It looks like your original post has sparked a tangential discussion, so I just wanted to chime in to say that I have been the lucky recipient of a trained and experienced dog. I mucked around with my first dog who was very difficult for a beginner before being matched up with the *perfect* first dog. Rae was 8 when she came to me and we have had a very successful 3 years together, progressing from our start in PN to placing at Open trials. Some others have already given you great ideas as far as what to look for. I will just add that you need to be sure the dog doesn't need an Open handler to work appropriately. There are many dogs who would run over a new handler if given the opportunity. I'd recommend a dog that is biddable, relaxed, has good feel for it's sheep, good pace, and at least moderate eye (the last 3 qualities should allow a novice some extra thinking time). The problem can be finding such a dog, and as people have mentioned, an Open dog in it's prime is hard to come by and is not cheap. I'd definitely want to know why the dog is being sold, and hopefully the seller is open and sincere.

I absolutely suggest a retired dog! Or maybe a dog who might not have what it takes to be the next world-beater, but is otherwise a capable worker. If your goal is to trial, I'd suggest a dog who is at least experienced with the trial scene and who knows it's way around a course. Many dogs could run the lower classes pretty much on auto-pilot.

The USBCHA trials are starting to get going this time of the year. Maybe it would help to visit one and expand your contacts. That is a good way to get the word out to people who may be considering selling or placing a dog.

I see you are in VA, where? I am in the SW part and travel to many trials, as do lots of board members here. Maybe we'll see you down the road sometime.

Thank you for your advice - well, thank you all for your advice - the post certainly ran on several tangents I had not been expecting.

I do agree with many thoughts here - I have been looking for pretty much what was described here and I agree that it is not easy to find. I have been searching for quite a while and the dog I am referring to in this post is actually the first dog that really has caught my eye and seems (in writing) to match what I have been looking for. He is a trial seasoned, well trained, biddable dog that, on video, does not seem to have too much eye or too much power that I will be run over by. Now, no dog is perfect so I doubt that he is, but so far, everything I have asked, read, and seen via video matches me. He is not retired, and is fairly young for a trial dog.

I am headed to meet the trainer/handler and dog in one week and bring the dog home with me for the 30 day trial period. From there we will see. See if the dog will even work for me, if he fits in with my life, my training and my world. If he isn't a fit, then it is back to looking, but if he is, then I will see you all on the trial field (EVENTUALLY - MAYBE).

Again, I thank you for all the advice on what to look for. Any advice on what I should be doing during this 30 day trial period or even about introducing a dog that has been the only dog for 6 1/2 months to it's new housemate would be appreciated. I am excited for the coming time - even if he is not a fit, it will be a lesson to me on housing a different dog and an experience for looking in the future.

Edit: I am in the Southeastern part of Virginia (about 40 minutes from the beach).

[ObeytheBC]

I wanted to give another thanks to all of those who answered here. I am coming up on the 30th day of my trial period with "Beck". I have decided to purchase him as he has been exactly what I was looking for. He actually started working for me the day after I brought him home, will take my corrections when he knows I mean it, and, in our time together, has already started teaching me so much. As I said, I am a very green novice and I know, with this dog, I will go far in learning how to be a better handler and better trainer. He is really the exact dog I was looking for and I could not be happier. I am looking forward to a long partnership with him and, one day, hope to see and meet many of you out there on the trial field. Thanks again and I am sure I will have plenty of questions and requests for suggestions in the future.

[Sue R]

Good news!

[rufftie]

way to go! congrats on finding a great partner/teacher!

[terrecar]

I have been watching this thread with much interest. I am so glad you asked the questions you did and shared your experiences. Congrats on your new partnership!

[Alchemist]

I've also enjoyed this thread (and I've also been advised to purchase a trained dog for my second dog, as I muddle my way through training my not-yet-to-novice-level dog, with the help of a very competent handler). Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! I wish you and "Beck" the very best of successes!

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Totally happy for you.....it's great to have a partner that can help you...may you enjoy the many miles you will have on your journies together!!

Congrats!!!

[Donald McCaig]

Good news. See you on down the road.

Donald McCaig

[Eileen Stein]

But what I can't understand is where the satisfaction would be in buying a trained dog to compete in trials with. Isn't the satisfaction in travelling the road to excellence together?

A beginner and the trained dog s/he buys are just starting out on the long road to excellence together, believe me. This ain't noughts and crosses.

Happy for you, ObeytheBC. Good luck to you and Beck.

[luv2napp]

I bought Lou from a person I knew a bit already, and she was very patient with my questions. I had seen him at trials so I knew (as much as someone who knows nothing about herding could know!) that I liked how he worked. He seemed quiet, the sheep were calm around him, and there wasn't a lot of yelling.

My questions to his owner largely revolved around how she thought he would adapt to a pet home. At the time, I lived in a condo in a big city, and the idea of making him an urban pet was bit daunting. She told me how Lou was travelling, and how he had been to lots of different places, and nothing much fizzed on him. We decided that it might be a good fit, so I bought him.

As this picture shows, Lou took to life as a house pet rather well.

I just had to comment on the photo! He is way too cute for words!!

[juliepoudrier]

A couple of us following this thread had wondered if it wasn't Beck you were trying! I'm glad he's working out for you and wish you best of luck for a fine future together!

J.

[emilyfalk]

Very cool! Enjoy!

[ObeytheBC]

I really should have known that, without me saying what dog I was trying out, someone would have figured it out! I just did not want to identify the dog and handler on a forum, just in case.

Alchemist, I do have to say that being a below-novice handler and purchasing an open level dog is an adventure. It was a huge wake up call to everything I have to teach my below-novice dog and is certainly introducing me to other aspects of the work that I did not have the exposure to. The information I am coming off of the field with has quadrupled and is all encompassing - just in my last lesson we were working on smoothing out an outrun, teaching me when to call out the stop at the top, enforcing a gentle and steady lift, how to position and work the sheep around an post and then drive the sheep back to the other end of the field calmly - without a whistle (and this was just 10-15 minutes of what we worked on!). My puppy is no where near this so it is a major change in everything - from the work itself to just how much more I am learning. So while I have only had Beck for a month, I have to say that those recomendations to get a trained dog to help you learn more and quicker are definately on to something.

I will also say - and this can be disagreed with, but it is my current feeling - that I am taken that much more seriously now that I have purchased Beck. I am recieving advice from a lot more people and I am getting much more complete answers. Other handlers that would be around when I was working my puppy never really paid me any attention and were not giving me advice. With Beck, I have these other handlers approaching me, helping guide me and my dog through the paces, and are really encouraging me - which is great, but a definate change from where I was before.

All in all, this has been a great experience and the right thing for me.

[Cynthia P]

ONe of the things I found when I purchased an open level dog was that I could now understand what people were trying to tell me. Things that people had pointed out in other runs, i could now do. Learning was quick and very helpful.

Some dogs will come back down a few notches (ok lots of them) and one of my students trained dog that he purchased tests him much more than I would want. I know it is a lot of money but it is very very very helpful!

Cynthia

[Sue R]

Maybe one reason you feel that you are being taken "more seriously" is because you have chosen to do a very smart thing - get a trained dog and allow him to help train you. I did not and it has been a struggle for both my dogs and myself.

Wise decision, and very best wishes!

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Would be Sheepdoggers,

The advice: "Buy a Trained Dog" may be the best, most disregarded advice in sheepdogging. Congratulations. You've saved yourself months/years of time.

Some people figure trained sheepdogs are too expensive.

Promising puppy; $750, three years of vet bills: $600, dogfood: $500, 200 hours of training at minimum wage: 1450, (entries,travel) testing at eight trials: $2400.

Plus the clinics and coaching.

Donald McCaig

[WildFlower]

Congrats!

I too purchased a trained dog earlier this year (April). She was run in Nursery and Pro-Novice in 2009. For personal reasons her handler sold her and she worked on a farm for a couple of years where I guess she didn't quite work out. She came to my trainer to find a better fit and I guess that was with me. I wasn't looking for another dog really... But sometimes things just happen! Teak has been a joy to work with and learn from. She has already helped me in my ongoing learning/training and also my training with Devon, whom I am trying to train myself.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the reason you're getting more advice and more complete answers is because people see a trained dog and figure that maybe you'll *understand* the advice better. As you said, Beck has shown you that you didn't even know what you didn't know. But because he's capable of doing the work, it's easier to explain to you the "whys" and "wherefores" because you now have a dog who can illustrate/respond to that those comments and bits of advice. Hopefully you'll be able to apply all the good advice you're getting to your less-than-novice dog too!

J.