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Revelance of breed selection...


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#1 Debbie Meier

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:04 PM

Thought I would share this PDF, maybe most here have already read it. Just yesterday the announcement about the Boxers being accepted into the herding tests made it rounds to me again, made me wonder if the generic herding test is now something that any average dog can be taught to do, this article kinda touches on it.

http://nationalcanin...mpanion Dog.pdf
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#2 The Good Shepherd

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:18 PM

Debbie I had an interesting discussion with a well-know local Kelpie trialer who told me there are Great Dane people who are pushing for their dogs to be included in Herding trials. He instinct tested about 5 of them already
I can not picture a Great Dane herding
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#3 juliepoudrier

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

It's 62 pages, so I've read only the executive summary so far, but this seems to be the main point of the report:

...Since a majority of dogs in the U.S. are of mixed-breed ancestry that cannot be reliably identified even by professionals, since, even among purebreds, breed is an unreliable predictor of behavior, and since most of the behaviors associated with specific breeds are only tangentially related to desirable and undesirable qualities in pet dogs [emphasis added], the practice of relying on breed identification as a primary guide in either ped-dog selection or dangerous-dog designation should be abandoned. [emphasis added]


I think it's entirely possible for most obedient dogs to be trained to do a generic (AKC-type) herding test. Because the stock are expected to be well broke to all types of dogs and the area in which one works is small, any dog who will reliably take commands should be able to work those stock through a generic test. What the dogs lack in any real stock sense would need to be made up by the human having some sort of stock sense, but then again, if the courses are generally the same and the stock pretty much "know the drill," then it's possible that even the hopelessly stock non-savvy would be able to get the average obedient dog of any breed around such a course.

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#4 Sue R

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:16 PM

...then it's possible that even the hopelessly stock non-savvy would be able to get the average obedient dog of any breed around such a course.

J.

So that just about anybody could take just about any dog out to find its "inner herding dog" on the poor sheep that belong to somebody who can make a buck off that sort of thing. Isn't there a "training facility" on the West Coast that does that already - anything from a Chihuahua to a Great Dane? Or so the website brags?
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#5 Gloria Atwater

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:39 PM

Wonderful. Sheep as dog toys. <_<

Yeah, Sue, I think there is. Forget the name of the place, though.

I just wish I could ask these people, "What the hell are you THINKING?" :blink:

Though if it involves AKC, they're thinking money.

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#6 Sue R

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:56 AM

I forget the name of the place (because I don't want to remember it) and, yes, I do believe AKC figures prominently. But that's where the money is, isn't it?
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

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#7 DeltaBluez Tess

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:05 PM

http://www.ewe-topia...tIsEwetopia.htm

I used to go there. I don't anymore.

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#8 Smalahundur

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

"Ewetopia", just the name gives me the willies.
Also I think the ewes in question have quite a different idea about what "utopia" is...

#9 D'Elle

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:17 PM

Bet the ewes there don't consider it to be such a paradise with all manner of dogs chasing them around all the time.
And for what??????
Oh right. money. <_<

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#10 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:01 AM

...made me wonder if the generic herding test is now something that any average dog can be taught to do.....

You already know the answer to this question: "yes".

This is a well designed test (with proper livestock selection) to yield the highest possible success rate for dogs which show interest in livestock. Note I didn't distinguish between various types of interest in livestock (i.e. prey drive). The only differences I see between this test and treibball (in terms of herding instinct) is the object can move on its own power and can be stressed.

I would find it interesting to see how many of pet owners who view sheep as acceptable dog toys would then object to such rough treatment of food animals in livestock yards.

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#11 appyridr

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

" Just yesterday the announcement about the Boxers being accepted into the herding tests made it rounds to me again, made me wonder if the generic herding test is now something that any average dog can be taught to do, "

Not only is the herding 'test' something any obedient dog can learn, but also can 'succeed' at the Advanced level of kennel club trials. It is all about their perceived prestige of titles and HITs(High in Trial) and money. In the Canadian herding program, they have always allowed any breed to compete. AKC is just catching up. lol
I have seen the Boxer 'work'; he is a lovely friendly dog and willing to do anything asked of him. But not an iota of herding instinct. He does not harm sheep. Certainly no more than many of the 'herding' breed dogs.
regards Lani

#12 Cynthia P

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:55 AM

I tell people that ask (other farmers) when they ask if they can use their regular farm dog. And if the dog is obedient enough and the sheep are not challenging a regular old what ever can work. My mini schnauzers will move sheep, my Giant Schnauzer would move sheep, not working, just obedient; Many of the "herding breeds" can move easy sheep because they are obedient. But put in a tough situation, i'd chose any of my border collies, even the old or young and untrained over the "other" breeds

I hate when people call and ask me if i'll instinct test their what ever....they just want to play with their dog and think itll help with their energy levels and instinctual desires..BLAH

cynthia

#13 DeltaBluez Tess

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

I have had people who want to bring their non-herding breed dog out to "play" with sheep...not a lesson but want Fluffy to play wiht sheep....I politely tell them we are a serious herding facility and then point them to the other place. However, if someone wants to herd with their pet herding , and may never be interested in trialing, but want to herd, we welcome them. Some of them do get hooked and then, they get a working dog, and the rest is history. Some like to spend time wiht their dog that love to herd. either way, they have the right mindset.

I have people sign a waiver and tell them sheep repalcement fee is $250. Some balk and they won't sign it so I point them to the gate.

Those who stay, I tell them "our" responsiblity is the safety and welfare of the sheep. They do get it and after a while, they start to recognize some of the sheep and their quirks. Some of them even go as far as saying "Ear tag ## has a tendency to bolt, or whatever"....and then notice if a ewe is a bit off. They are on the path of being a good shepherd when I see that in them.
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#14 PSmitty

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 03:08 PM

I like the way you think, Diane.
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