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#1 alligande

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

After hijacking Airbear's thread on Rex learning how to navigate a tire into a discussion on blind crosses, I got to thinking about Ketchekers (or how ever it is spelt) I realized that I had been taught it in 2 different ways, then I started watching youtube videos, got confused and then thought lets come here and ask.

Have patience with the descriptions, its is hard to describe in words :(

Version 1: turn to face the dog, use what is now the inside arm to direct the dog over the jump with your arm going backwards and around the wing and pick him up on that arm.

Version 2: turn to face the dog, use what is now the inside arm to direct the dog over the jump with your arm going backwards and around the wing, pick the dog up on the outside arm, therefore it was a blind cross.

After watching the european videos I came to conclusion that version 2 was a Ketcheker, if so what is version 1? Is it just a version of a front cross? On one American video it was labelled as a "backy up"

I ran a course in class last night were Version 1 gave my a really nice tight turn on the second attempt, the more conventional slowing down and front crossing took the bar as my partner was focused on the tunnel on take off, obviously I had not communicated early enough. The blind cross version would not have worked as the dog would have been on the wrong side.

So thoughts, and if any one has any good video links please share.

#2 SecretBC

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:25 PM

Your example in number one is what is referred to as a "blended front cross." Your second example is a Ketschker.

Steve over at AgilityNerd is semi-obsessed with them in recent months. ;) You can find some really good information on his site.

http://agilitynerd.c...&path=&type=all

That's a link to all of his Ketschker articles and most have video that go with them.
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#3 Root Beer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

Version 2: turn to face the dog, use what is now the inside arm to direct the dog over the jump with your arm going backwards and around the wing, pick the dog up on the outside arm, therefore it was a blind cross.


This is how I learned. I love doing these. We call them "The Rally Move" as a way to remember how to do them because the dog is sent behind like a right finish and then picked up on the other side (although the direction can vary, of course).

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#4 gcv-border

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

Thanks for this topic. I have never heard of a Ketcheker before. I hope to find some time to review the video on AgilityNerd, but in the meantime - can someone give me a basic understanding of when to use this strategy.

Thanks in advance.

Jovi

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#5 SecretBC

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:08 PM

Strategically, you would use a Ketschker when you need the dog to make a tight wrap and you need to get ahead of them on course.
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#6 PSmitty

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

I'm glad you brought this up!

Yeah, I thought #2 was a Ketschker. Although I didn't know that's what it was called when I learned it. Like this (only I'm not so graceful):



I think I saw the video that mentions "backy uppy". Didn't he call it a backy uppy with a blind cross? The backy uppy part is the first part, backing up and cueing the jump with the inside arm (motioning backwards), then he calls the pick up on opposite arm a blind cross. Same as a Ketschker, I think?

Then again, there's this one. No backy uppy at all, it's a forward send to the jump, then the Ketschker turn to pick up on the opposite arm. So there doesn't have to be the backwards part of it, I guess?


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#7 gcv-border

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

It sounds like it is similar to Sylvia Trkman's cik/cap commands which she uses to send the dog to the next obstacle, and the dog knows to decelerate to make a very tight turn, then accelerate to the next obstacle.

I will be quiet now until I have viewed a couple of videos to learn about the Ketscher and can ask more informed questions. :)

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#8 Root Beer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:21 PM

It sounds like it is similar to Sylvia Trkman's cik/cap commands which she uses to send the dog to the next obstacle, and the dog knows to decelerate to make a very tight turn, then accelerate to the next obstacle.


Is that where that came from?

I am working on training tricks with Dean, using the Kyra Sundance books, and she has cik/cap in her games book. I was like "what the heck?", aren't they just wraps around the jump?

It seemed like one cue sends the dog to wrap one way (around one stantion) and the other sends the dog the other way (around the other stantion)? Unless I'm mistaken. The description wasn't terribly clear.

Sorry - tangent. It's just something I hadn't heard of before.

ETA: I looked it up on google. Interesting concept. It's famous. Who knew?!!? :)

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#9 SecretBC

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

Then again, there's this one. No backy uppy at all, it's a forward send to the jump, then the Ketschker turn to pick up on the opposite arm. So there doesn't have to be the backwards part of it, I guess?



I have no earthly idea what that woman is doing. She isn't changing arms at all, she starts with the dog on the left arm and picks it up with the left arm. She more or less is doing a completely pointless turn. I would have just used an RFP to get the dog's attention for the turn.

But whatever that woman is doing, it is NOT a Ketschker. I'd like to see it not in slow motion to see if it makes any more sense. I doubt it.
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#10 alligande

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:15 PM

It sounds like it is similar to Sylvia Trkman's cik/cap commands which she uses to send the dog to the next obstacle, and the dog knows to decelerate to make a very tight turn, then accelerate to the next obstacle.

I will be quiet now until I have viewed a couple of videos to learn about the Ketscher and can ask more informed questions. :)

Jovi


Its different from cik/cap which is a verbal command for the dog, the Ketschker is a handling move that could be used in conjunction with cik/cap. I have her dvd and she is using the command to give the dog information about the type of jump he needs to make, it might not be a wrap but a jump where he needs a tight angle like in the middle of a threadle, it is not used to send the dog to an obstacle, just the style and direction of the jump he will be doing. It is also not a simple left right command as the goal is a the dog bending around the jump before, during and landing. I can not remember what cik/cap meant but it was something Slovenian. On her website she credits those tight turns to her international success more than the running contacts.

PSmitty I think the second video shows a strange blind cross not a Ketchsker, Daisy Peel has a very nice tight version of blind cross on a turn on her video which I think that cross might have been meant to be.....

Thanks for everyones comments so far, I thought I was on the right track and then got very confused once I realized there was a disparity.

Secret we were posting at the same time

#11 PSmitty

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:05 PM

PSmitty I think the second video shows a strange blind cross not a Ketchsker,


Agreed, now that I paid more attention. Just searching for Ketchsker on YouTube will get you all kinds of things, apparently. :D
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#12 gcv-border

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

Its different from cik/cap which is a verbal command for the dog, the Ketschker is a handling move that could be used in conjunction with cik/cap. I have her dvd and she is using the command to give the dog information about the type of jump he needs to make, it might not be a wrap but a jump where he needs a tight angle like in the middle of a threadle, it is not used to send the dog to an obstacle, just the style and direction of the jump he will be doing. It is also not a simple left right command as the goal is a the dog bending around the jump before, during and landing. I can not remember what cik/cap meant but it was something Slovenian. On her website she credits those tight turns to her international success more than the running contacts.

Secret we were posting at the same time


I have the cik/cap dvd too and took her cik/cap seminar when she was here in Richmond, VA in 2011. I agree that they are directional verbal commands, but they are more than that too as you have pointed out. They way I understood it is that the command includes the concept of sending out to a jump, deceleration (important!) in order to get the tight turn (almost a 180) and then acceleration to the next obstacle. She has a picture on her website of one of her BCs (not the PyrSheps) doing a beautiful bendy turn. She can use the command for threadles, but she also uses it for jumps further away. It makes perfect sense that the tight turns have more impact than the RCs. (at least the argument she presents on the DVD makes a lot of sense to me)

I am trying to use the cik/cap commands for tight turns and use Left and Right for turns that do not require the dog to 'return' to me. I use cik and wrap as my 'commands' because that makes more sense to me. I believe that cik and cap = zig and zag in Slovenian. She says the commands are derived from the commands she used when teaching her dogs to weave through her legs.

My impression is that her body signals (i.e. handling) also help convey the cik or cap command, but am not sure about that. She doesn't seem to focus on that as much when teaching the cik/cap. It just comes from me watching videos of her running her dogs. I could be completely mistaken.

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#13 airbear

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:46 PM

Here's Daisy's explanation

This type of blind cross is sometimes called a "Ketschker Turn", although I dislike sexy "names" for things myself Really, a better name for such a blind cross would be a reverse post turn, since this sort of blind cross IS a post turn, as there is no change of sides. However, in this 'reverse post turn', you'll be turning your shoulders TOWARD your dog, rather than away, as in a 'normal' post turn, and so you don't have to worry about inadvertently giving the dog forward cues. The blind cross itself does not do anything to cue the turn – rather, it's your takeoff side location, with no motion, shoulders turned in to the dog, that cues the turn; you just let the dog go behind you to take the jump, and pick them up again on the same side. Instead of rotating with the dog, you rotate against them:


Easy peasy, right? Posted Image

ETA: Here is a good use of a whateveritscalled, at the 0:24 mark.



And her rationale:

A regular post turn would probably have cued a wide enough turn that my dog would have gone beyond the plane of #5, incurring a refusal or an off course. And, since the next obstacle in the sequence required me to move, I couldn’t afford to handle #4 with a typical threadle type cue, as that would have prevented me from moving downstream as early.



BTW, this is from her online handling course. I'm not her freaky stalker. Posted Image
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#14 mum24dog

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:08 AM

Version 1: turn to face the dog, use what is now the inside arm to direct the dog over the jump with your arm going backwards and around the wing and pick him up on that arm.

Version 2: turn to face the dog, use what is now the inside arm to direct the dog over the jump with your arm going backwards and around the wing, pick the dog up on the outside arm, therefore it was a blind cross.


Version 1 is a Remo if you're into labelling moves. Not a common term though. Really it's just a pick up and doesn't need a fancy name.

Here are some Ketschkers -



#15 gcv-border

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:19 AM

mum24dogs - Bummer, I tried to watch the video you posted, but got a message that says it is "This video contains content from EMI,who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".

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#16 alligande

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:01 AM

Jovi, that is interesting about cik/cap from the DVD I took away that it was about the turn, I took the part of driving out of the turn at speed as just part of the desire for speed and drive, not as a specific part of the command. Does that make sense, I guess watching her videos I get the impression she expects speed and drive in all parts of agility :D . I also like you assumed that handling was a big part of the turns, but in the DVD she was just covering the mechanics of teaching the command. I am curious did you enjoy the seminar, watching her videos she seems as if she would be fun to learn from.

I would like to do what you have a cik/cap for tight turns (I have been using turn/flip) and a left/right for wider directionals so far I am struggling with training the turn/flip we have one direction down pat, but he hates turning counter clockwise. During a run we have no problem with a tight turn to the left as he is very responsive to handling but on a verbal command during training sessions its like talking to a brick wall. So I take long breaks work on something else and then come back to my project.

Mum24dog, you tube would not me let watch either.... I do not need fancy names I have a hard enough time remembering what I am supposed to be doing, while running flat out.

Thanks everyone for helping me sort out my confusion.

#17 mum24dog

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:10 AM

mum24dogs - Bummer, I tried to watch the video you posted, but got a message that says it is "This video contains content from EMI,who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".

Jovi


I assume it's the music. I don't use the sound on my computer so don't think about things like that.

#18 Rave

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

I just call it what it is, a motionless blind cross. I disagree that it's not a blind cross and not a change of sides - your dog goes behind you from one hand to the other. I guess you could call it a blind cross post turn lol. It's similar to what frisbee players use when they have the dog go behind them, except there's a jump involved.

#19 gcv-border

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

Jovi, that is interesting about cik/cap from the DVD I took away that it was about the turn, I took the part of driving out of the turn at speed as just part of the desire for speed and drive, not as a specific part of the command. Does that make sense, I guess watching her videos I get the impression she expects speed and drive in all parts of agility :D . I also like you assumed that handling was a big part of the turns, but in the DVD she was just covering the mechanics of teaching the command. I am curious did you enjoy the seminar, watching her videos she seems as if she would be fun to learn from.

I would like to do what you have a cik/cap for tight turns (I have been using turn/flip) and a left/right for wider directionals so far I am struggling with training the turn/flip we have one direction down pat, but he hates turning counter clockwise. During a run we have no problem with a tight turn to the left as he is very responsive to handling but on a verbal command during training sessions its like talking to a brick wall. So I take long breaks work on something else and then come back to my project.

Mum24dog, you tube would not me let watch either.... I do not need fancy names I have a hard enough time remembering what I am supposed to be doing, while running flat out.

Alligande -
I think you are right, in that she expects speed and drive in all parts of agility. So whether or not the acceleration from a cik/cap turn is acceleration out of the turn or acceleration to the next obstacle is not clear in my mind now that you bring it up. I thought I remembered her saying that she wanted acceleration out of the turn, and in my mind I linked it to the cik/cap command. In practice, I don't think that there is a clear division between one 'command' and the next when running a course.

I wish I had a cik/wrap and left/right as I described. It is also a work in progress. Torque does pretty well in practice, but add in the speed while running a course, and his tight turns break down pretty fast. My next goal is to increase the speed in practice while drilling directionals. I have also had to work very hard on remembering which word to use for directionals - in that, when running a course, it is not unusual for me to take that extra split second to remember which verbal to use, and by then, it is too late. (Even though when I walk a course I will practice my verbals, but then I get flustered while running.)

I enjoyed Sylvia's courses. As usual, they packed them with more handlers and dogs than I prefer, but I understand the financial reason for doing so. I think the cik/cap seminar was one of her best, but the running contacts workshop didn't work very well. Her style is quite soft-spoken and serious, but I felt she enjoyed communicating with us.

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#20 alligande

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:18 AM

Alligande -
I think you are right, in that she expects speed and drive in all parts of agility. So whether or not the acceleration from a cik/cap turn is acceleration out of the turn or acceleration to the next obstacle is not clear in my mind now that you bring it up. I thought I remembered her saying that she wanted acceleration out of the turn, and in my mind I linked it to the cik/cap command. In practice, I don't think that there is a clear division between one 'command' and the next when running a course.


Jovi


Jovi I am glad we have the same understanding..... personally I think she is emphasizing the acceleration so you do not get people training really nice accurate tight turns, but doing it slowly which would defeat the purpose! I think that is what makes her cik/cap different from some of the other tight turn training concepts is that the emphasis is on speed coming out. A similar idea to really fast poles or training accuracy over drive. Since I have been training my young one my focus has been on speed and drive, I have had a few trainers say if I slowed my pace and not "race" my dog I would have better control, and others who say never slow and that is the advice I have followed, the control is coming with practice and trust.


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