43 replies to this topic

[Root Beer]

Before you get too excited about doing all of this VT stuff, though, Sharon did make a rule to try to make people happy (didn't work for me). You have to get 50% of your points towards titles from real trials. So technically you can't earn all of your titles at home.

I do run him in occasional live trials, so that might actually work. Lack of slatless contacts is a bigger problem, though. There are two places we could go, but they wouldn't be all that convenient. VALOR might just be much simpler since we could use the equipment at the place where I train.

What is the point of earning titles at home? Who cares what your dog can do in training? I have oodles of video showing my home training sessions and it clearly shows that my dogs are amazing. Who cares, unless they can replicate that in a trial environment?

I care.

For one thing, I'm not trying to show anyone that Dean is amazing (I know that already - Agility trials or not. ) I am complementing our training by working toward goals. Those goals are the criteria that we need to meet to title. Whether that criteria includes a live audience or not actually doesn't matter in the least to me.

Personally, I find filming for video events to be quite different from training sessions, practice, or rehearsal. In a lot of ways I prefer live events, but I am grateful for the opportunity to participate by video with the dogs that I have for whom that is more appropriate.

ETA: Since you object to the decision, I think you've made a good call by supporting a different venue.

[rushdoggie]

Re: Secret

She was adorable...she tried to be brave and do that thing! My first dog I trained in agility who had not done obedience first, I completely forgot he had never seen a broad jump before and I had entered him in a match. He very carefully stepped on and balanced on the middle board. It was terribly cute.


Re: video titles

I have no issue with them in theory, some people have dogs with social issues or are really broke and this might be a way to achieve something. That said, I don't agree with combining the titles. That doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Carlasl]

I don't think anyone cares if NADAC has video titling, but in no way should it be included with live trial titling....it should be completely separate.

[Root Beer]

I don't think anyone cares if NADAC has video titling, but in no way should it be included with live trial titling....it should be completely separate.

I don't really care whether they keep it separate or combine, although if it is causing them to lose participants, it may well be more prudent to title them separately.

I just don't see the fact that they are currently choosing to combine as something that lessens the value of titles earned either way. Maybe I'm just used to it from Freestyle, where video competitions have never been separate for titling, but I've never considered the way that one handler chooses to earn a title (live, video, or a combination) as a determination of value of my own titles. My titles have value because of what my dogs and I put into them and what we have accomplished personally, not what others have and have not done.

[alligande]

Root beer I think the problem is fairness, when I enter a NADAC trial it costs me $13.00 a run and I may or may not qualify, in agility you either q or not no judgement call. There is a judge standing in the ring, ring workers to distract, spectators on the side lines, lots and lots of excited dogs, a gate steward telling you to get a move on even if your dog is reactive, maybe a hold at the start to re-set an obstacle or the timers, this is not just about the dog, but the tension in the handler, with a VT run, the handler is not as vested, no finacial outlay untill after, the butterflies are not going to be there, there is no feeling of is this the day, as with a VT run you can have another go, either today or tomorrow, no feeling of letting your partner down because you messed up your handling. Most people and dogs get up early, drive at least an hour or two, the dogs bathroom habits are out do synch, for that matter their team mates bathroom habits are out of synch, I am sure I could keep going

I have absolutely nothing against anyone doing virtual dog sports, I have read you defenses of virtual rally etc, and never understood anyone's objections to your choice, the problem with NADAC is the decission to combine the two, as in no way do I see them as the same and nothing will convince me otherwise, (see above) .

To be honest my opinion is based on the fact that I feel agility is a competive sport, just like show jumping, dog sled racing, or running. I enter road races, and do not expect to win, but I enjoy the challenge of seeing if I can improve my time, in agility I want to win, as I have an amazing dog, and if we win I know I have pushed us both, with my older a dog, it was the equivalent of my road races, I was hoping for a nice run, a happy focused dog and maybe a Q but I was still competing to do my very best against everyone else, if we placed then it meant that we had it together, and he had enjoyed himself.

[mum24dog]

What is the point of earning titles at home? Who cares what your dog can do in training? I have oodles of video showing my home training sessions and it clearly shows that my dogs are amazing. Who cares, unless they can replicate that in a trial environment?

I agree totally - and I have 2 dogs that can perform OK in training but just can't cope with the competitive environment. It's a pity but hey, it's just life. Things don't always go to plan and I don't want to be patronised by the possibility of a consolation title.

[jdarling]

SecretBC says:

And we are on the "honor system" to trust that people are not running the course 20 times before submitting the video of the one clean run they managed out of all those attempts?

Airbear asks:

If you set up the course, video it, and have an off-course, are you honestly saying you're going to send in that video with the $5 fee for review?

Rootbeer responds:

Of course not. That is one of the obvious differences between criteria for video events and live events.

"Aba dee, aba dee, aba dee, that's all folks!"

[Jumpin Boots]

What I am most confused about with this new VT program, is that if you are going to seperate out a NATCH versus a MEDAL, why would you then let VT runs be thrown in the mix with no seperate awards program. Unless the NATCH/MEDAL has changed too, quite frankly I'm not a 'rules' person, so am not good about staying up with the ever changing nitty gritty. I have my own standards for my dogs, regardless of whether they Q on a course or not, if we didn't perform up to my standards, then it wasn't a Q for me anyway; quite frankly some of my most favored runs, especially w/ Renoir have been runs we didn't Q on, but runs that we overcame major training issues. I personally have so issue w/ NADAC offering a VT program, go for it, sounds like way too much work to me; we work on things at home all the time, occassionally setting up full courses, although not usually; I personally don't need a pat on the back from someone else to see those runs and say 'good job, thanks for your 5 bucks.' Although I don't have dogs who have trial issues or stress; and I am in an area that has a lot of trials. If I had a dog who couldn't perform at trials, but loved the game at home, or lived in an area w/ very few trials then I would probably have a different opinion.

[SecretBC]

This country has gone way too far with its "everyone is a winner!" attitude. You know, not every single dog is destined to earn a Champion title in agility. Hell, not every dog is destined to earn ANY title in agility if going to competitions is outside their comfort zone. It is not your god-given right to earn any title with your dog. If you want that sort of thing, you work towards the goal just like the rest of us.

Both Kaiser and Secret stressed horribly when they first started. Secret is noise sensitive -- Kaiser just hated being around people. They both shut down in different ways. We kept training, we kept plugging along -- I blew A LOT OF MONEY on trials because that was the only way I could work through the issue -- because they were PERFECT at home. Both were running Elite/Excellent/Masters level courses at home before they ever started to trial. But they got to the trial environment and *shut down*. It's part of training your dog -- to work through those things.

If you can earn the same exact titles at home that I earned by working my ASS off to get my dogs comfortable in the trial environment, that is NOT RIGHT. Do you have every right to earn titles at home with your dog? Certainly. But they should not be *exactly the same* as the titles earned at trials. I don't care if someone wants to start at Novice and go all the way through Elite to earn their first NATCH, all while running at home -- so long as that title as the letters VT behind it to show HOW it was earned.

Here's my deal -- I enjoy NADAC. My dogs enjoy NADAC. Ever since I started doing agility I have felt the need to *defend* my choice to do NADAC. The majority of the agility world does not consider NADAC to be "real" agility due to the lack of obstacles and the wide open spacing. That said, the majority of people who do poke fun at NADAC agility will admit that it takes a lot of work to earn a NATCH. Not every dog is capable of this, due to the tight course times and the distance skills required to succeed in the Elite level of Chances. So the one reason I was able to keep my head held high and keep working towards goals in NADAC is because I felt there WAS some respect for the fact that my dogs earned a NATCH.

Now that you can earn even one of those Q's at home completely devalues the award. It makes a joke of everything I've worked towards. NADAC removed the one area where I might have actually received any respect from my peers in the agility world.

And it pisses me off.

[Journey]

And I think y'all need some Vanilla Ice Cream

[gcv-border]

OMG! I had not heard about that particular rule change in NADAC. IMHO, by combining the points/Qs earned in both real and videotaped runs really devalues any titles achieved. Yes, my dog handles much better at 'home'. He is wonderfully focused at trials and has no significant stress issues. He is a very wonderful partner, BUT he tries sooo HARD at a trial that his striding is off - resulting in an occasional dropped bar and a very frequent miss on his running contacts. Achieving points in a trial atmosphere is very different than achieving points in a VT run away from the trial atmosphere. It goes against simple logic to combine points achieved in essentially 2 separate venues.

I only play at NADAC once a year in a local trial, but was thinking about trying to add one or 2 more NADAC trials since I really love the atmosphere and the different classes (particularly tunnelers - so much fun). I think that I will stay with the annual trial.

One question that popped into my mind: Will the teams that achieve titles/points/whatever via VT runs, be able to progress onto greater things? By that, I mean will they qualify for nationals or a national NADAC team (if there is one?) Maybe people can 'compete' in the nationals by videoing the runs at home?

Jovi

[gcv-border]

Just saw SecretBc's last post ^^^, and I agree with it totally. (I was probably typing while she posted).

Jovi

[mum24dog]

Just wondering how the course time would be set for a video Q.

[SecretBC]

Sharon starts a stop watch when the dog goes over/through the first obstacle on the video and stops it when they go over/through the last one. Very scientific...

And yes, points earned via VT runs do count towards qualifications to enter Championships. Not that this is really all that big of a deal. Champs never fills and every year Sharon lets dogs in that didn't meet the requirements.

[mum24dog]

Sharon starts a stop watch when the dog goes over/through the first obstacle on the video and stops it when they go over/through the last one. Very scientific...

But don't you have to have the course time within which a dog must run to get a Q specified in advance, and based on the course itself on the ground?

I'm assuming that the course is one prescribed but it would be very difficult to determined whether it had been set up exactly right on video.

[SecretBC]

That's just another argument against the program, considering how few people know how to properly set a course to NADAC specs.

I've seen more than one video with courses that appear to be spaced much closer than you would see in a trial, due to not having enough space.

See, all the rational people can see the flaws behind the program -- or at least COMBINING the programs. Not sure why it's so hard for the folks "on top" to see it the same way. It is all sunshine & roses in their eyes.

Oh, and of course the people who are benefiting from this also see it as a fantastic idea.

[alligande]

NADAC judges are trained to measure their courses by striding, only once have I seen a course wheeled at a NADAC trial, so I asked one of the organizers of most of our trials who happens to be a judge and he explained that Sharon felt that once you had learned your stride then you could measure a course very accurately, in fact more accurately as the wheels can be inaccurate. I have always had my doubts about this since the time I ran a fast jumpers course in novice, everyone thought we had Qd, in fact no one made time........
So it really is another problem when combining the two programs, but when it comes to NADAC I feel many people have drunk the cool aid and what ever Sharon says is right. Prime examples are jump height, my NADAC friends are horrified that I have chosen to jump my young dog at 26" in USDAA, or those dam hoops, when I bitch about them, the party line is that it is about the dogs path, well the sports name is agility not dog handling. Ok climbing of my soap box.

[Rave]

Sharon starts a stop watch when the dog goes over/through the first obstacle on the video and stops it when they go over/through the last one. Very scientific...

That's how things used to be done in all venues.

[mum24dog]

NADAC judges are trained to measure their courses by striding, only once have I seen a course wheeled at a NADAC trial, so I asked one of the organizers of most of our trials who happens to be a judge and he explained that Sharon felt that once you had learned your stride then you could measure a course very accurately, in fact more accurately as the wheels can be inaccurate.

Most judges use guesswork here which used to work pretty well. Very few got it completely wrong and most judges erred on the side of generosity. That was OK since we work on the basis of wins rather than Qs and the best dog on the day will win whatever the course time.

However, our grading system changed a few years ago and it has become easier to win up the grades, especially with a Small or Medium dog. There are 7 grades and dogs are winning out of the bottom ones faster than new dogs are entering the sport in some parts of the country. Grade 6 is also growing quickly because after that 4 wins are needed to get to Grade 7.

Changes are being made to the requirements for moving up to slow it down and one of those is likely to be measuring of courses and tighter course times. Guesswork is rather a blunt instrument but it's quicker than using a wheel for every course and we are always pushed for time at our shows, which is why we've preferred it in the past.

[alligande]

Mum24dog, I do not know about other American venues, but USDAA measures their courses, if you have electronic timing and a course time it makes sense that the distances should be accurate. It does not seem to take them any longer to change ourses, than the NADAC trials I go to.