69 replies to this topic

[Sue R]

What Paula said - my "extremely simplified" meant that my summarization was extremely simplified and was not implying any reflection on the courses. Any course, in any venue, can be dumbed down or made more challenging. My comment had nothing to do with anything but my description - and had I been thinking better in terms of words, should have read "extremely briefly summarized" or some similar disclaimer.

The "copyright" symbol was a typo, and I had just typed the C within parentheses, like the A and the B, but that comes out as the copyright symbol. So I went back and fixed it.

[juliepoudrier]

Sue,
This forum reads a c followed by a parentheses as a command to produce the copyright symbol. It's the same reason people who list a B followed by a close parens get the smiley face with sunglasses. The downside of emoticons: when you actually mean to convey something else, the damn things pop up anyway....

J.

[Sue R]

At least I didn't make all sorts of "emotional" typos!

[geonni banner]

Sue,
This forum reads a c followed by a parentheses as a command to produce the copyright symbol. It's the same reason people who list a B followed by a close parens get the smiley face with sunglasses. The downside of emoticons: when you actually mean to convey something else, the damn things pop up anyway....

J.

Sorry to sidetrack, but is it possible to make it so you have to go to the emoticon menu to get an emoticon? I hate it when I get them inadvertently.

Sorry, carry on.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

Sue already gave a thoughtful and eloquent answer, so I'll just give my short version:

I doubt it.

I've seen quite a few GSDs run in AHBA and ASCA trials, and some demonstrated actual talent and stock-sense. But what I notice most about them is that they simply aren't quick enough in movement, fleet enough of foot or fast enough on a long run to do the same work as a border collie. And a border collie is what USBCHA courses are designed for. When faced with flighty, fractious sheep, the GSDs I've seen generally find themselves playing "catch-up."

I saw a *very* nice GSD at a large flock AHBA French trial this summer, one of the nicest I've ever watched ... but she timed out, because she was unable to cover all the sheep's escapes or tangents, and lost time due to her (very commendable) attempts to get them back under control.

I think it's that lack of sheer speed and cutting-horse moves that would hold a GSD back in USBCHA trialing. It's not a fault in the breed, per se - it's just that they are different breeds and therefore work (and were bred) in different ways, for different tasks.

~ Gloria

[G. Festerling]

There is no way to compare or lump German style TENDING with the way Border Collies work. Never was meant to. I have HGH bred dogs and did a lot of research into it also partially because I remember from my childhood watching huge herds being moved around for grazing. Totally different environment and therefore requirements.
Edited to add that it should read one HGH bred dog. Also to add that I never could pursue it due to the lack of trainers and the need for larger amounts of sheep to even get close.

[terrecar]

There is no way to compare or lump German style TENDING with the way Border Collies work. Never was meant to. I have HGH bred dogs and did a lot of research into it also partially because I remember from my childhood watching huge herds being moved around for grazing. Totally different environment and therefore requirements.

This is what I was missing; the distinction in working style. It makes more sense now.

[Tea]

Ok, I must be missing something or I am confused by tending? What is it exactly?



When I forage my sheep loose I use border collies.
usually 2

Most of the time the dogs sit at my feet or by my horse. There are no fences, a few old logging roads.

Sheep graze or browse on indigenous brush. They drift a bit......then a dog will swing out and block and then when the sheep know the boundary my dog will come back to me and sit. It is all pretty quiet and peaceful really.


The flock size depends on how good my year has been. It could be 50 it could be close to a couple of hundred. There are a few spots where the dogs have to be careful about not letting the sheep drift too much up in one of the community areas. The island has more houses now. But still it is my old ewes that know the drill.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,
Ulf Kintzel hosts a tending trial on his New Jersey farm http://www.whiteclov.../sh-events.htm. I've never met him but he has an excellent reputation. Though there is tending work a Border Collie couldn't do (I'd never leave a Border Collie to guard sheep), from video's and rules, the trial work isn't beyond a Border Collie's capacity. There are style points for which a Border Collie would be penalized but one ought to be able to do tending trial work successfully. I've thought about entering but Mr. Kintzel's trial is the same weekend as the last of the weeklong Virginia trials, just an hour from home.

Donald McCaig

[G. Festerling]

Tea, somewhat correct. Now add busy streets, properties that are not fenced, lay of the land amongst much denser civilization. GSD's are trained to protect boundries which could be furrows, streets etc. Also are to protect against outside threats to the herd.
I would like to think (because my Border Collies are my first love and by what I know about them) that it would be much easier to adapt a Border Collie to some sort of tending than to expect a GSD to herding BC style that includes lifting, fetching, balance etc.
Look at the history of the breeds and the land and culture. But there is no question that in real life, i.e. not stylized trials who hit on many of the requirements but can not possibly cover every aspect of the job, the service the dogs provide will overlap.

[G. Festerling]

Donald beat me to it. Ulf Kintzel does have a great reputation amongst GSD tending folk. I would love to spend some time with him but it is too far.
Also, there is a lady named Ellen Nickelsbach who is on one of the GSD lists who has excellent knowledge due to having been taught by an old master.

Edited to fix the link to Ulfs site
http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/

[Tea]

Ok I see the difference now.



The German Shepherd dogs they leave with the sheep alone.



And they are in a busier place.


I would not leave my border collies alone with my sheep, either, Sheepdogging Geezer.



But the sad part is my old ewes I could trust to do their job on there own pretty much except for the hikers and all the loose dogs.
I have to add. Old Cap has run off one loose dog.


And I can't have my LGD loose on unfenced land.

[Cynthia P]

I have contemplated becoming an AHBA judge but won't enter in CKC because of they move to show the border collie in conformation. So Julie, I do have titles from AHBA on my dogs...granted I don't put them behind their names (or in front of their names); i do have AKC titles on dogs from many years ago.

I do think that it is wrong to judge AKC herding events. But I would/do still train people that want to run in AKC/CKC or AHBA herding. I guess that is how I support the machine...inadvertant, but it is $$ in my pocket and helps pay for my dog food and training bill.

As for AKC C course; it is really something watching a good tending type dog work a border on a graze. One of the German shepherds (person), would start his dogs on the graze, each took 2 sides, and he would go and sleep in his car. They were something to watch! Again, appreciating a well bred dog that is doing what it is supposed to do.

Ulf Kinzel has some very good tending dogs when I watched him 8 or 10 years ago. He also runs the HGH which is much more typical of what they do in Germany.

Tea, i too have grazed with my border collies, i've also used a tending dog, and once a border is set it is very neat to watch the dog work.

Cynthia

[Sue R]

The nice discussion on tending (thanks!) makes me think of one fall, just two years ago, perhaps, when we were strip-grazing our north hayfield. The field is two to three times as long as wide, and we were grazing it in fourths, using step-in posts and polytape to contain the cattle.

They would graze one section and then Celt and I would place ourselves along where the polytape would be relocated, Ed would take it down, letting the cattle into the new graze, and then he would set up the polytape in its new location behind me.

Celt, whose strong point is outwork (outrun, lift, and fetch) and not either driving nor holding stock off, quickly got the idea that there was "a line" and the cattle were not to cross that imaginary line. After the first time we did this, I didn't have to move in response to the cattle edging up to the line, but I could see him lying to one side of me, watching.

If any cattle from either side would begin to advance, he would quietly and quickly move laterally to place himself in front of the leaders. He'd stand, they'd see him, stop and drop heads to graze (or even shift back slightly first if he stepped forward because they had come up too far), and then he would lie down again and watch for movement in front ranks of the cattle.

A form of simple tending, and a new job that a gathering dog understood and was able to do - but I'd have never left him to do it alone. It is a fond memory for me, and an extension of the job of holding stock at a gate (or off a gate) which is something we have to do on occasion - but this involved a "front" that was a hundred yards or more in length.

A good tending dog at work must be a beautiful sight to see.

[terrecar]

Donald beat me to it. Ulf Kintzel does have a great reputation amongst GSD tending folk. I would love to spend some time with him but it is too far.
Also, there is a lady named Ellen Nickelsbach who is on one of the GSD lists who has excellent knowledge due to having been taught by an old master.

Edited to fix the link to Ulfs site
http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/

I hate to blaspheme on this board, but I still have a love for the German Shepherd Dog that rivals my newfound love for Border Collies (and my own BC X of course). Hence, this is very heartening to me, as it looks like this fella' breeds GSD's for versatility and working ability. I had friends who did Schutzhund with their German dogs, but I did not know about the HGH thing.

ETA: Having said that, there is something about the style of work that the Border Collie does that makes it seem almost magical to me. I don't think I would be quite as moved watching a GSD tend sheep, to be perfectly honest.

[The Good Shepherd]

A very good friend of mine and a member of our herding group put an ASCA WTCH on her GSD, so it can be done with the right dog

[Jeanne Joy]

Good tending dogs are beautiful to watch. I saw a many Old German Shepherds (Altdeutscher Schaeferhund) tending in Europe. You can see some interesting shots of the type of work they do if you visit:

http://www.a-a-h.de

Here is a post with nice pictures of German Shepherds from Ellen Nickelsberg's bloodlines she got got Manfred Heyne, a professional Shepherd. Interestingly, I met Ellen at Manfred's place in Germany.

http://www.kleinenwi...ng-wdelta-2011/

About Manfred:

http://www.german-sh...-manfred-heyne/

[G. Festerling]

Thank you Jeanne, that is the one! Cool stuff!
OT< just went to your site that was linked through the Tiger. Been doing some searching on the old german herding type dogs for a while now. I did not even know about most of those dogs.

[terrecar]

Good tending dogs are beautiful to watch. I saw a many Old German Shepherds (Altdeutscher Schaeferhund) tending in Europe. You can see some interesting shots of the type of work they do if you visit:

http://www.a-a-h.de

Here is a post with nice pictures of German Shepherds from Ellen Nickelsberg's bloodlines she got got Manfred Heyne, a professional Shepherd. Interestingly, I met Ellen at Manfred's place in Germany.

http://www.kleinenwi...ng-wdelta-2011/

About Manfred:

http://www.german-sh...-manfred-heyne/

Your Wordpress blog is awesome. From the time I could read, as a child, I read every breed history book I could get my hands on. I particularly love reading about the old foundation dogs.

[Pam Wolf]

Claudia, the WTCH is NO where near comprable to a Border Collie trial. I have seen 2 or 3 GSD over the years with both the mental capabilities of large field trial work. None had owners capable of getting them very far. But the clinicians they worked with could do quite a bit with the dogs. But these dogs are the exceptions.