69 replies to this topic

[Pam Wolf]

First to address Eileen: AKC trials do not "purport to be a test of herding excellence" but rather to see what abilities of the various breeds has been retained. I will agree that is is misrepresented by many.

Many became involved in AKC before the Border Collie was entered into the AKC ranks and some fought against the acceptance of the Border Collie as an AKC breed. Some thought they could help the people within the AKC learn what a 'real' herding dog was. Some thought AKC was the "way to go" and the breed would benefit from AKC recognition. Few ever did it without using their Border Collies to get their judging license.

Over the years some have changed their opinions, others remain the same. Some (myself incluced) started with the AKC to help friends (and yes there is money to be earned) train other breeds before the Border Collie was an issue. Anyone who knows me knows I have never felt the AKC could do the Border Collie any good. And that is not a popular view in some circles either. And I earned the titles on client dogs my first being on a Pembroke Welsh Corgis and a rough Collie (and many since primarily on other breeds) I have handled Border Collies-for friends but they fully knew my opinion of AKC and the Border Collie. Some of these 'saw the light' and now advocate against AKC type Border Collies. I prefer to stick with the other breeds for AKC as IMO the program was developed for these breeds and the Border Collie should be in better trials.

I was an active participant in the Dog Wars opposing AKC recognition as I knew where it would lead. I feel ABCA failed to close the barn door when they had a chance and the only route now is to educate people about the lack of value in AKC 'herding titles'. I still do not think conformation showing of the AKC named Border Collie is good for the breed and strive hard to educate people that that sort of dog is not a working dog.

I maintain the license to better help my clients and students to understand the program which was developed originally for the other breeds. Do I think it is a "perfect program" NO! Do I think it is good-not for improving the dogs but that NEVER was the purpose and at the original meetings it was stressed that the program was to see what abilities were retained, the realm of the conformation ring was for 'improvement'. But that is AKC's stance and many there will never understand the desire for a working standard.

Call it sacrificing integrity or helping educate others about what real work is and helping people learn how to better use the dogs they have or a way to earn income. Not everyone who works stock wants a Border Collie, believe it or not! And does someone really need a keen working dog for 5 sheep on 5 acres in suburbia? Should they buy watered down collies (which are being bred more and more often to support the weekender trial market) or get a breed they like and that with some work can help them with their minimal work? And many of those with other breeds find financial and personal reward from earning AKC titles. I don't understand it but accept it is of value to them and will help them by helping to teach them better understand what good work is(and hopefully show them the lack of value in titles)

[bcnewe2]

Not everyone who works stock wants a Border Collie, believe it or not! And does someone really need a keen working dog for 5 sheep on 5 acres in suburbia?

No not everyone does want a border collie but are you suggesting that you have to have a huge place with hundreds of sheep to warrent owning a decent working dog?
Why would that be? My dogs are keen, keen as any other nice working dog, I don't have a huge place, I've had keen working dogs since my first 5 acre surburia place and they have all managed to do exactly what my place and I have called for. I've had 5 acres up to 40 acres. I've had as few as 5 sheep up to 150 head. If it's not allot of work, they laze around waiting for more. I resent the idea that I don't "need" a good dog. And lets mention the weekend people that have no sheep, do they not deserve or need a good keen dog?
Your statements seems 2 sided and I just don't understand your point about keen nice dogs.
I do understand that other breeds might be tested with AKC but that really doesn't have anything to do with our dogs, or supporting the AKC when you preach against them. I'm just not getting it.

[PSmitty]

Thanks for some thoughtful posts, Diana.

[Eileen Stein]

First to address Eileen: AKC trials do not "purport to be a test of herding excellence" but rather to see what abilities of the various breeds has been retained. I will agree that is is misrepresented by many.
. . . .
Do I think it [the program] is good-not for improving the dogs but that NEVER was the purpose and at the original meetings it was stressed that the program was to see what abilities were retained, the realm of the conformation ring was for 'improvement'

The stated purpose of the program when it was started, according to the AKC itself: "The purpose of the program is to preserve and enhance the herding abilities of the 14 AKC Herding Breeds. . . ." It wasn't a research study. How is it possible to maintain that a program which awards titles like "Herding Tested," "Herding Champion" and "Herding Excellent" to dogs who are judged to meet its various requirements does not purport to be a test of herding excellence?

Some (myself incluced) started with the AKC to help friends (and yes there is money to be earned) train other breeds before the Border Collie was an issue. Anyone who knows me knows I have never felt the AKC could do the Border Collie any good.

The logical next sentence, to my way of thinking, would be: "So when AKC recognized the border collie and admitted it to their herding program, I felt I had to end my participation and do my helping and educating in other ways."

I have handled Border Collies-for friends but they fully knew my opinion of AKC and the Border Collie. . . . I feel ABCA failed to close the barn door when they had a chance and the only route now is to educate people about the lack of value in AKC 'herding titles'. . . . And many of those with other breeds find financial and personal reward from earning AKC titles. I don't understand it but accept it is of value to them and will help them by helping to teach them better understand what good work is(and hopefully show them the lack of value in titles)

I just don't understand this. These trials are not just for other breeds. Border collies are entered in them, and as a judge you judge them, and on the basis of your judging they are awarded herding titles. So how does your participation educate those folks on the lack of value in the titles you have enabled them to get? When you hand them the ribbon, do you say "Unfortunately, there is no value in the title you've just gotten" or do you say "Congratulations!"? Heaven knows I believe in helping dog owners, and I believe in education, but there are plenty of routes to doing both of those things without sending the mixed message (at best!) that these titles are worth your time and effort to judge and bestow and help them achieve, but wait, actually, at the same time -- they are not in fact of value.

You don't have to be an AKC judge to help people train their dogs and better understand what good work is.

[Pam Wolf]

To Kristin. I have a small farm, 80 acres and about 80 ewes currently, 20 goats (changing from Angora to boer) and I am pasturing a friend's longhorn cattle for the winter.Not hugh but big enough. if you had read properly the message was that not everyone WANTED a Border Collie. Why not learn how to use the breed they want to?

While there are those who think the AKC program is a seal of excellence, I think you would find many who recognize it for what it really is, while most outside of the AKC don't know the difference and unfortunately that is a problem.

No, the trials are no longer just for other breeds and that is a shame. A bigger shame is the lack of other breeds that compete due to the presence of AKC Border Collies.

Eileen, I did resign prior to the admittance of the Border Collie but on the request of many good friends renewed to help them-and they have other breeds. They fully understand my position. I do not accept many judging assignments as I find it very difficult to judge the poor work that is most often exhibited. Does this justify affiliatoion, perhaps not, but I do not need to justify my actions to those who are closed minded anyway.

[terrecar]

Thanks for some thoughtful posts, Diana.

I second that, Diana. Very informative posts. Thank you.

[Liz P]

Back when I ran sled dogs I used Border Collies. People asked me why I didn't get a breed better suited to the sport (husky). A better dog could pull more weight and withstand more extreme weather. My answer was that it was just a fun activity to do with the breed I loved. I wasn't running the Iditarod or Yukon Quest, just doing some sprint races. Sound similar?

If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job. Now, if someome bought the sheep first, realized they needed a dog to help on their small farm and asked my opinion, I would suggest a Border Collie rather than a Sheltie, Corgi, Briard, etc.

Remember Serena's thread? Remember all the people telling her that she didn't have to be the best agility handler or even compete to enjoy the sport as a bonding experience? Same idea. As long as the owners of other breeds are practicing good stock handling skills and treating all the animals involved with respect, let then have fun. (And if they do want to compete, suggest the AHBA program which does not support conformation showing.)

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, I did resign prior to the admittance of the Border Collie but on the request of many good friends renewed to help them-and they have other breeds.

I guess I'm sunk in confusion here. How does your being a judge help your friends? If a judge in the legal system said she resigned but then returned to the bench at the request of friends in order to help them, eyebrows would be raised. If you mean you did it to help your friends train and learn, why did you need to be a judge to do that? If you mean you did it to ensure that your friends got their Qs and ribbons and titles -- but surely you didn't mean that.

They fully understand my position. I do not accept many judging assignments as I find it very difficult to judge the poor work that is most often exhibited. Does this justify affiliatoion, perhaps not, but I do not need to justify my actions to those who are closed minded anyway.

No, you don't. You don't even need to justify them to those who are open minded, but I understand your wanting to do so.

[Sue R]

While there are those who think the AKC program is a seal of excellence, I think you would find many who recognize it for what it really is, while most outside of the AKC don't know the difference and unfortunately that is a problem.

In my limited sphere of experience with people involved with pursuing AKC titles (and AHBA titles), they either feel it is a "seal of excellence" or (if they don't) promote as a "seal of excellence" or some other "proof" that their dog has "true herding ability because that's what they have been bred for" (even if their dogs' ancestors haven't been selected for that purpose for generations), thereby justifying breeding said dogs and justifying participation in the AKC system.

And for some reason, even achieving the very lowest "titles" is proof positive that the dog "has it all". Just my observations, your mileage may vary, and (as I said) I have had limited exposure - but the attitudes I have seen have been remarkably consistent. And not just confined to people involved with the AKC Border Collie but also other breeds that have some sort of titling in fieldwork (gun dogs, other "herding" breeds, etc.).

[Eileen Stein]

If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job.

But wait -- who is making them get a breed they don't want?? Who is telling them to switch breeds??

[Pam Wolf]

I do not equate the judging of what is a hobby (to those who participate in working trials of any type) to judging people in a court of law.

If people consider the titles/ribons to be meaningful I can do little about that except try to educate them-don't understand it but recognize it exists

[juliepoudrier]

Diana,
The C course was meant to be a tending course--a means to showcase tending breeds. From discussions on Herders-L it seems that the original intent behind the three different course types (A, B, and C) was to showcase the strengths of the various herding breeds. So dogs like German shepherds and similar breeds could shine on the C course, which requires a dog to maintain a specified perimeter around a flock/herd that is grazing. The dogs are trained to recognize a perimeter (marked) and to patrol that. FWIW.

To those asking about Pam's comments, what she was saying to say was that some people have breeds they love and they want to work with those breeds. She was saying the opposite of what people seem to think she was saying. If I had ended up with a bouvier (nearly did) and fell in love with the breed, then I might just have wanted to work stock with the breed I own and love. It wouldn't be helpful for someone to tell me to get another breed, so Pam's remarks relate to the fact that she offers training to folks who have breeds other than border collies because those are the breeds *they* want to work with. In other words, she works with other breeds in other breed venues because those are the dogs the owners have and want to work with and she won't presume to try to convince them they should give up on their breed and get a border collie (and then, by extension, start competing in border collie trials instead of AKC/AHBA). I don't understand the need to be a judge in order to help people trial their other breeds, though. The person I started with also offered training to other breeds, but she herself never trialed in anything but USBCHA and she didn't judge or otherwise participate in AKC events. I think that's a reasonable approach; it's one I could live with, though TBH I have not enjoyed working with other breeds very much, so probably wouldn't do it anyway.

I agree with Sue regarding titles. IME the people who seek them and get them do consider them important and proof of the ability (and also sometimes breedability) of their dogs.

As Diana noted, there is a culture within the AKC that says if you've gotten your Ch on a dog you should stop trialing it so that other up-and-coming dogs have a better chance to also get a Ch. They don't seem to get the idea that the newer dog *ought* to be able to beat current champions in order to get its own Ch designation, and they also don't seem to understand that a culture of forcing current champions out to make it easier for newer dogs to get their Ch essentially diminishes the value of a Ch tremendously.

There was a recent thread about this on Herders-L. I kept asking if the Ch was important because breeding decisions were based on its presence or lack. Very few people would admit that they wouldn't breed to a dog that didn't have its Ch, even though numerous people also indicated that they could recognize a good working dog when they saw one. But apparently, even with that recognition, they still needed that Ch before making a breeding decision. It's a whole different world....

J.

[PSmitty]

Back when I ran sled dogs I used Border Collies. People asked me why I didn't get a breed better suited to the sport (husky). A better dog could pull more weight and withstand more extreme weather. My answer was that it was just a fun activity to do with the breed I loved. I wasn't running the Iditarod or Yukon Quest, just doing some sprint races. Sound similar?

If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job. Now, if someome bought the sheep first, realized they needed a dog to help on their small farm and asked my opinion, I would suggest a Border Collie rather than a Sheltie, Corgi, Briard, etc.

Remember Serena's thread? Remember all the people telling her that she didn't have to be the best agility handler or even compete to enjoy the sport as a bonding experience? Same idea. As long as the owners of other breeds are practicing good stock handling skills and treating all the animals involved with respect, let then have fun. (And if they do want to compete, suggest the AHBA program which does not support conformation showing.)

Good stuff, Liz!

And then there are also people like me (*dons flame retardant suit*). I don't have "other" breeds, I have border collies, but they will NEVER be USBCHA material. Lots of people like me enjoy the idea of trialing, but we have to work with what the dog is capable of doing. It doesn't mean that we think that AKC trials are the epitome of what a border collie should do, in fact many of us know it's exactly NOT that. I don't know people who make breeding decisions based on the titles earned at these types of trials, either. I know they're out there, but I personally don't know anyone with the mindset that Sue R describes. What I have experienced is people who enjoy their dogs, enjoy working with livestock, and are doing what they can with the dogs they've got.

[terrecar]

This question is unrelated to the ethical implications of dual venue judges, but I don't know where else to stick it. Does anyone think that certain breeds have lost their herding instinct to such an extent that they don't even belong in the herding group? If so, I wonder if the "weak" herding tests would perpetuate the idea that a breed is a herding breed that really is no longer appropriate for that function.

For example, when I started showing dogs as a Jr. there were only six groups. Border Collies were in the miscellaneous group and German Shepherds were in the working group. I was rather surprised then, when the GSD was taken out of the working group and put in herding when the split came about in the 80's. This is because, although I knew the herding history of the GSD, I thought that role had long ago switched over to one of guard/sentry/police dog. That could just be my lack of knowledge regarding GSD's used for herding.

I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

[Pam Wolf]

A better question is did they every really have good abilities? Most of these 'breeds' were choosen from local dogs that looked a certain way, some may have been useful others who knows. In reality Border Collies, Kelpies and certain lines of the German shepherd dog are the only dogs (maybe a couple of rare breeds like Koolies) that have been intentionally selected for working abilities.

I have seen a couple fo GSD that would have the abilities to run at smaller USBCHA trials but they tended to lack owners/handlers with the ability.

[juliepoudrier]

Paula,
I think you are part of a subset of people doing things with the dogs they love, and not typical of the AKC herding breed breeder. It's those latter folks who imbue all sorts of signficance in AKC/AHBA titles.

That said, I took my dogs to an AHBA trial once and ran them on the advanced ranch course (HRD III?). They were 1st and 2nd both days. A bunch of folks told me after that trial that if I went to just one more trial I could probably get a certificate! These were all people who trialed at the novice level in local handler's association trials and also entered AHBA because they wanted to get titles and certificates. So I think there are plenty of folks out there for whom the reward/award is a real motivating factor. I actually see it in USBCHA style trials, too, where people will attend the novice classes only if they know doing so will get them points toward a year-end award or other honor. That's not a big deal--if rewards/awards is what motivates, then great. But too many of these people hang out their shingles to give lessons and breed their dogs based on successes at the titling venues. I don't know which is worse, lol!

I entered the trial because I kept hearing that the ranch dog test was a true test of real work on the farm. And yet, the trailer that had to be loaded was out in the middle of the field, without anything to stop the stock from just circling (everyone I know would put a trailer along a fence line so the human and dog have to cover only one side, not both), and it turned out that once I got just one of the three or four sheep on it, I was told by the judge that it was sufficient and I could move to the next obstacle! It *was* fun, and I think the large flock courses that are sometimes offered would be fun too. But the entry fees were significantly higher than those for typical border collie trials, so it's not something I would do often. But I certainly do see the appeal, at least of the ranch courses.


Anyway, my comments about breeding based on titles earned are largely the result of my experience on Herders-L and personal experience with folks in some of the local handlers associations. I wish more people would use those titling venues just for fun like you and the people you know do.

J.

[Sue R]

I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

USBCHA trials are designed to test and showcase the strengths of the Border Collie, not any other particular breed or group of breeds.

Just because the GSD (or any other breed) is lumped into "herding" does not mean that the stockwork style that breed may have once been bred for is anything like the stockwork style another breed has been bred for. That is why, I understand, there are different courses - for the dogs without big outruns "A", for the dogs with bigger outruns "B", and for the tending dogs "C" (extremely simplified).

As for whether GSDs are grouped with "working" or "herding", I suppose that could be based on whether or not they are grouped by historical or more recent general use.

I don't care what breed or type of dog a person uses for their stock if the work that the dog can and does do is useful and suitable, and the stock are treated well. It should all be about good husbandry, and that requires good care for the stock. And that goes for hobbyists, too - the stock are not dog toys, and their welfare is important.

We've used Aussies that suited most of our work most of the time, and were quite happy with them. But, when I saw what a Border Collie could do that was well beyond what my otherwise very useful Aussies had done for us, I realized that that was the kind of dog *I* wanted to help on *my* farm and in *my* situation. And *I* liked the Border Collie personality better, but that was me, not the dogs. The dogs are what they are.

And I've never tried to convince anyone else that a Border Collie was *the* dog that they needed or wanted. I do feel that for many or most people, if you are serious about stockwork, a working-bred Border Collie is in general, the most talented, most suitable, most useful dog - because Border Collies have been bred for the work. But as most other breeds have been bred with other things in mind (show, pet, companion, performance, anything but stockwork), a person is often more likely to find a suitable Border Collie than a suitable dog of another breed.

What bothers me about AKC and the pursuit of titles is that AKC puts breeding for appearance in the forefront, and that people feel that titles (no matter how minor or how insignificant) are proof of true working ability.

I really need to avoid getting sucked into this debate but I know, from past experience, that I don't have much chance of that. I'm ever a fool...

[The Good Shepherd]

"tending dogs © (extremely simplified)"

I take a strong exeption to this


I have yet to see a Border Collie that did "C" the German version of it which is also the same as a SCH1.

Please do not make such statements

Claudia

[PSmitty]

Claudia, I'm pretty sure that Sue just meant that her quick synopsis of the courses was extremely simplified.

Sue said: Course A-for the dogs without big outruns, Course B-for the dogs with bigger outruns, and Course C for the tending dogs.

[PSmitty]

Paula,
I think you are part of a subset of people doing things with the dogs they love, and not typical of the AKC herding breed breeder. It's those latter folks who imbue all sorts of signficance in AKC/AHBA titles.

<snip>

Anyway, my comments about breeding based on titles earned are largely the result of my experience on Herders-L and personal experience with folks in some of the local handlers associations. I wish more people would use those titling venues just for fun like you and the people you know do.

J.

Yes and thank you. I agree.