50 replies to this topic

[ChrisNewhouse]

I've got two videos here: the first is Nina circling the sheep with a lead. This is her 2nd session doing this and I've kept them to around 15 minutes each. The first several times out with her I basically just let her mess around. She started getting too used to diving right into the sheep, so I thought I should start to teach her to circle. The second video is her first time circling off the lead. I thought she did very well, but I'm open to any comments or suggestions. I'm a total novice at this and am just trying to pick up what I can from books and videos. Thanks for looking!

Chris




Edit: I should have mentioned this right off the bat, but I'm following Vergil Holland's book. Several people have rightly pointed out that circling is not an end in itself. I didn't intend to present it that way, but I think my initial post and videos were misleading in a way because I didn't mention exactly what I was attempting. As I read it, Holland recommends staying between the dog and the sheep during the initial exposure and teaching it to circle around. After the initial exposure, you are supposed to work on getting the dog to start "holding the sheep to the handler rather than all of your directions being focused on keeping the dog away from them." I hadn't gotten here yet, but I will definitely go there next!

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Chris,
I know you said Nina wanted to dive right in, but you should understand that when you constantly put pressure on her by circling between her and the sheep, preventing her any real contact with them, you are just increasing her tension and frustration, and in the long run it won't be productive.

What I would suggest you do is lie her down, walk toward your sheep, and then face her. Step in the opposite direction of the way you want her to go, so if you want her to go to her right as you're facing her, you'll step to your right to take the pressure OFF her and give her somewhere to go. Pointing in the direction you want her to go is confusing her, which is why she often tried to go the wrong way. Pointing is pressure, and she's trying to move away from it.

Where are you located? You and Nina would both benefit from a good mentor you can help you with the basics.

Julie

[ChrisNewhouse]

Hi Chris,
I know you said Nina wanted to dive right in, but you should understand that when you constantly put pressure on her by circling between her and the sheep, preventing her any real contact with them, you are just increasing her tension and frustration, and in the long run it won't be productive.

Hi Julie,

Thanks for your response. I'm following (probably inadequately) what is recommended by Vergil Holland in Herding Dogs: Progressive Training. I don't know if it is the best way, but I've heard the book mentioned in several places as a good place to start. As I understand it, this is just an initial training phase and very soon I'll get on the other side of the sheep and move on from this stage.
I hear what you say about pointing, and I'll work on it, although Holland recommends starting inbetween like this at a point of balance between the dog and the sheep and maintaining this position as she runs around. I'm not trying to argue at all here, just explaining why I did what I did.

I'm located in Wisconsin. Perhaps this summer I'll find a some classes to take to get some hands on help.

Thanks again for your response,

Chris

[Jim Kling]

I concur with Julie's advice, though I'm also a novice handler. But from the video, Nina isn't accomplishing anything by going round and round -- it seems like it would be frustrating for her. The dog wants control of the sheep, and she's not getting it here.

In one of the videos, it looked like Nina went around the sheep to the balance point, and you forcibly removed her from them. That's exactly what you want her to be doing.

I second Julie's recommendation of a trainer. Stock work can seem simple and straightforward at first, deceptively so, but it's really extremely complicated and difficult, and very easy to go down a wrong track. Some people teach themselves and do so successfully, but I really suspect that it's rare.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Chris,
I don't have Vergil's book handy to look at, but I would suspect that he didn't intend for you to continuously prevent your pup from actually engaging the sheep. Maybe someone who has it at hand can check that.

I just don't think it's productive to be holding her long line and staying between her and the sheep. She's not really learning anything about working stock. When I first watched your video I thought you looked like someone trying to stop an enthusiastic youngster by staying between her and the sheep until you could get hold of her. That's the picture the video presented.

Anyway, I figure that since I've posted, maybe some others will join in. There are excellent handlers in Wisconsin who could help you get her started.

Julie

[ChrisNewhouse]

Hey Chris,
I don't have Vergil's book handy to look at, but I would suspect that he didn't intend for you to continuously prevent your pup from actually engaging the sheep. Maybe someone who has it at hand can check that.

Maybe this is not the best way to start, but he writes: "your major goal will be to try to get the dog to circle the stock. . . . Your job is to block the dog from coming straight in toward the sheep. If your dog wants to come straight in, take your crook or boogie bag and swish it along the ground [etc]. . . .If your dog closes in, try to step toward the dog and push him out."

I'm all to happy to change tactics if this is not a good one, and I'm beginning to have my doubts. Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but he sure seems to be insisting that I keep the dog away from the sheep during these initial sessions.

I was out with her several times before this, allowing her to go into the sheep. She went strait at them, and my understanding is that this circling exercise is a way to teach her to come at the sheep in an arc. I really do appreciate your input. I'll be more careful from now on to be sure I'm reading what I think I'm reading, since you make some very good points.

Chris

[ChrisNewhouse]

I concur with Julie's advice, though I'm also a novice handler. But from the video, Nina isn't accomplishing anything by going round and round -- it seems like it would be frustrating for her. The dog wants control of the sheep, and she's not getting it here.

Thanks Jim,
I'll review the part of the video you are referring to. Please see my second response to Julie as to why I was doing things this way, but I am very open to the possibility that I am either doing it wrong, or not following the directions in Holland's book correctly.
I appreciate your time and response.

Regards,

Chris

[Debbie Meier]

Hi Chris, I was referencing Vergils' book over the last few minutes, reread the chapter along with the "Things to notice during the introduction" portion of the book. Also refer to the photo at the back of the chapter along with the description. There is a fine line between teaching the dog to circle the stock and actually making the dog stay out on a circle, what you are not doing is giving her the chance to make the mistake and correcting her for getting to close before it actually happens. Examine closly your position relative to the dog and stock, especially the hip compared to the diagrams in the book. Your doing something simular to lunging a horse in a circle as opposed to teaching the horse to stay on a arc without your help. Hope that makes sense.

Anyway, referring to the book, Vergil mentioned circling each direct a couple of times and then moving on to getting the dog to balance the stock to you, I believe it is to be all part of one lesson vs. circling being an exercise. Other good places to be referring to in the book are page 74 and 75, good photos of what the work should be looking like, even now on the first introductions and beginning training.

[NorthfieldNick]

I just went and pulled out the book. I'm under the impression that the staying between the dog and the stock is for the initial introduction to stock. It's really a tool to keep the dog moving to prevent to sheep from stopping and tension building. Holland says that if your first-time-on-stock dog gets to balance, the sheep stop moving, etc, that the dog may not be at a point to handle the pressure and may dive and grab. The handler is initially attempting to prevent the dog from coming to balance so that the sheep keep moving.

If you read further, Holland pretty much starts working toward balance as soon as the dog shows sustained interest by circling and changing direction when the handler puts pressure on the dog to do so.

Circling incessantly is not only frustrating, but also can build bad habits.

I don't know if this is typical (I've only started one young dog), but my pup at 7 months and his first time really turning on, circled a couple of times. I started backing up when e was at balance and he kept the sheep at my feet. Puppy sheep, granted, but he stayed more or less on balance and did not continue circling. I'm by no means an experienced trainer, but I do work sheep everyday, and I know when a dog is on balance, and how to read sheep. I sent my young dog out for training as soon as I felt he was mentally ready.

ETA: Debbie was posting at the same time. Same message, though- go to the next chapter.

[ChrisNewhouse]

Hi Chris, I was referencing Vergils' book over the last few minutes, reread the chapter along with the "Things to notice during the introduction" portion of the book. \

Thanks so much for taking the time to look into that Julie. I'll review the sections that you mention, and hopefully get a better idea of what I should be doing. I appreciate your response.

Chris

[Debbie Meier]

Just a note: the tail lifting and flagging is a sign of excitement and tension, usually a lead in to frustration, in some cases someone that is expirenced sees it where as the new hand takes the tail flag as an indication of the dog having fun.

[stockdogranch]

My 2 cents' worth: Virgil's book is GREAT. However, I think training up a first stockdog is almost impossible to do from a book. Without having a clear picture of what your big picture goal is, as well as the goal for each step along the way, it's really easy to read what he says and kind of get it, but not really (if you know what I mean). I would strongly suggest finding a mentor to work with you. Even if it is a bit of a distance to drive, you can take a lesson, go home and work on what you've been shown until the next lesson, and so on.

As others have said, circling is just a very beginning step toward helping the dog find balance, and once the dog can find balance, that's where you want to work for a while (a pretty long while, actually). Circling for its own sake is not productive, and can build some bad habits (and others have already pointed out),
A

[ChrisNewhouse]

I just went and pulled out the book. I'm under the impression that the staying between the dog and the stock is for the initial introduction to stock.

Thanks,

I treated this as the initial introduction because prior times in the field were just letting her do whatever she wanted. I has no intention to keep up with this circling for several sessions, and as long as it looks ok I'm ready to move on. I appreciate your reply.

Chris

[ChrisNewhouse]

Just a note: the tail lifting and flagging is a sign of excitement and tension, usually a lead in to frustration, in some cases someone that is expirenced sees it where as the new hand takes the tail flag as an indication of the dog having fun.

Interesting, I'll keep my eye out for that from now on. I'm sure she's giving me a multitude of messages that I'm yet unable to read.

Chris

[ChrisNewhouse]

My 2 cents' worth: Virgil's book is GREAT.

Thanks,
I'm sure I will find someone to help me. Already the advice I've gotten tonight in this forum has been invaluable, and I'm sure an in person experience could be many times so. Would you recommend stopping all contact with the sheep until I have a trainer, or is it ok to continue along Virgil's path as I look for one in my area?

Chris

[Shoofly]

It looks like you've got a nice little pup there. Five months is really young for much training. You could take her out occasionally and just walk around the field letting her hold the sheep to you and it would be good experience for her. But really you could also just let her grow up a bit still.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Hey Robin,
Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to mention the pup's age and then forgot....

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Chris,
I have a four-month old. I've had her on sheep a few times, but I haven't really put any training pressure on her and won't for a few more months.

Check out Robin's Bart video and Denise Wall's training May videos that are pinned at the top of this forum (training and trialing videos). Both should give you a good idea of the picture you're aiming for when you take your pup to sheep.

J.

[Shoofly]

Good idea on the videos Julie.

Here is Bill at 4 months

and at 5 months

(for some reason i can only post a couple of videos at a time so this is part 1)

[Shoofly]

(and part 2)

and at 7 months

and then at 8.5 months

Chris, you can get a pretty good idea of how a puppy comes along from those, and how to move into and away from the dog. You can see that i'm mostly trying to move away from Bill and leave him to bring the sheep.