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Why Tea is sometimes a bonehead


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#1 Tea

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 06:20 PM

For some odd goofy reason I guess I did not completely understand the rules in the SDT.



I thought the less commands the better the score, still taking in account the lines etc.



But now yesterday someone told me, no you can command all you like as long as you have your lines, dog not rushing etc etc.





Hum...... well that explains that



#2 grenzehund

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 06:45 PM

Well you do get knocked for each command / redirect on the outrun, you got that part right!

#3 Jim Kling

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:13 PM

For some odd goofy reason I guess I did not completely understand the rules in the SDT.



I thought the less commands the better the score, still taking in account the lines etc.



But now yesterday someone told me, no you can command all you like as long as you have your lines, dog not rushing etc etc.





Hum...... well that explains that



I had the same impression. I suspect it depends strongly on the judge.
Jim
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#4 juliepoudrier

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:07 PM

Without actually looking at the judging guidelines, which is probably a mistake (but I'm sure someone will point it out if it is), I think there is a provision for excessive commands (at the lift and on the drive), but honestly I've never known anyone to actually take points off for such a thing, except at the lift. Of course that's not quite the same thing as rewarding fewer commands by not taking points off....

Okay, I went and looked:

Judges will deduct points for excessive commands, rash or rough work, slowness of
approach, and any other faults.

Dog requires excessive commands to lift the stock (more than
one or two commands). Per commands after the first two. 1/2-1 point


On the fetch: Handler commanding excessively. 1-4 points


On the drive:

The dog should show
obvious ability to drive steadily without excessive commands. Handler commanding excessively. 1-4 points


J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



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Julie Poudrier
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Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat, Twist, Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, and Birdie!
Willow's Rest, Tunis and mule sheep



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#5 Gloria Atwater

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:12 PM

It's confusing to figure out. I've also been told that whistling (re-directing) on the outrun will result in docked points, and sometimes a stop to begin the lift and fetch will also get one docked. But I was at a trial recently where I gave Nick a pretty hard stop at the top, whereupon he turned smartly and made a beautiful lift. The judge didn't dock me at all. So, I guess it depends.

But yes, while driving and on the fetch, one is free to whistle pretty much at leisure. I try not to over-command Nick, but I've also heard handlers who toodle away like canaries, non-stop from the lift onwards.

Tea, you make me laugh, but in a good way. :)

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#6 DeltaBluez Tess

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:33 PM

I get hit hard for commands on Rainey's outrun as she gets sticky at the top. On her drive, she needs more commands to help her push the sheep along. I don't get hit for that as time kills me if we are too slow. However, this weekend she hardly needed any commands on the drive as she was gung-ho on her push. (I guess my new drive training paid off) On the fetch, excessive commands will be docked.

Pen and sheds needs commands also.

You need to give enough commands to get the job done, whereever it maybe on the course. I know that I am getting docked for my but I need to help my dog over that hump. My homework is to fix that so I won't have to do that anymore.
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#7 Maja

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 02:37 AM

I thought exactly the same as Tea, and then I saw the video of Supreme Champion semi-finals and my! those whistles just never shut up :lol: (apart from the outrun). So I gave up on reading the guidelines and now I just listen carefully to the judge during the briefing (particularly when it's German or Czech! :lol:).

Maja

#8 Donald McCaig

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:52 AM

Dear Fellow Handlers,

In my handling experience, redirects on the fetch are 2 points minimum - whatever the guidelines say. Since we want to encourage necessary redirects, when judging I am inclined to dock merely 1 point for a "flying redirect" instantly accepted and acted upon but mine is a minority opinion. Derek Scrimageur told me of a Highland trial where a minimum of 6 redirects is required to get the dog behind the sheep - and that were he judging such a trial he might not deduct anything for the "Flying redirect." This makes sense to me and I've run a few trials in the US where redirects are almost always required - but any judge who decided NOT to penalize a Flying Redirect should inform handlers at the meeting.

I dislike too many commands on the fetch but as a practical matter deciding what "excessive commands" are depends on a knowledge of that dog and that draw very few, if any, judges possess. As a practical matter:

1. When the dog's genetics are doing most of its thinking, commands are stress. Overcommanding on the lift, fetch or crossdrive panel to final obstacles stress the dog unnecessarily and increase the risk of a blowup at the high tension pen and shed.

2. I so appreciate relative silence on the fetch I may be a little kinder on the fetch line and some other judges may as well.

3. Unless you have a line dog (rare) you'll need many commands on the drive and crossdrive. I once timed John Templeton crossdriving Roy at the International 28 commands in 20 seconds (and I probably missed some).

4. As a practical matter, if you overcommand at the pen or shed, you'll crank up your dog and risk a blowup but I don't know any judge who'd deduct for commands.

5. I see it less than I once did but a few handlers (some of them very good) still whistle inbye. Some rarely go to voice. This cannot be a deduction but on spooky sheep is not recommended. Probably not a habit newer handlers should adopt.

Donald McCaig

#9 Smalahundur

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:12 AM

Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean, specifically what is an "inbye":
I see it less than I once did but a few handlers (some of them very good) still whistle inbye

"Milli manns og hests og hunds hangir leyniþráður"


#10 Maja

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:17 AM

I think it's close work, like shedding and pen. the far away is out-bye I think.
Maja

#11 juliepoudrier

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:13 AM

^^ Correct.

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



mydogs_small2.jpg

Julie Poudrier
New Kent, VA
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat, Twist, Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, and Birdie!
Willow's Rest, Tunis and mule sheep



Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)


#12 Tea

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:04 AM

Thanks guys, all good info.



:)




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