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New here :) + Difficulty getting into the breed


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#1 cmsgyay

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 10:05 PM

Hi everyone!

I'm new here but I didn't see an intro section so I thought I'd post here.

I live in Vancouver currently with a Papillon. In the past we've had a few mixes from retriever to herder to god knows what...

Our family has 2 other dogs, a Cavalier and a LH Chi, they belong to my aunt.


I'm looking for a BC as my next dog in the next few years (probably 2-3) when I finish college and have a more stable lifestyle. I got into the breed by meeting a lot of awesome dogs at flyball and agility trials I've watched. I've worked with some BCs as well and they're just awesome! Really cuddly and loving, plus I just love their energy and drive.

I got a Papillon as my current dog while I admired collies because I'm living with my mom and she has a 15 lb size limit requirement for me lol. Hence I picked a toy breed that is highly energetic, intelligent and fast as well!. Nia could be a great performance dog but unfortunately currently with my work and school schedule I can't seem to find her a class that is the right time :( I hope I can get her into it in the future.

Here's a few pics :)

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DSC_6912 copy by blahbloo, on Flickr

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DSC_6204_087 copy by blahbloo, on Flickr



So since I've decided my next dog will be a collie, I've been having lots of problems meeting people and finding breeders to talk to....hoping you guys can help.


Basically,...I'm looking for a medium to high energy dog with good drive. I mainly want a stable pet as the most important trait with a good off switch and good nerves but I am looking to get into agility, dog disc and trying herding. The problem is, since I don't drive, I can't make it out to any of the herding trials and I find it really difficult to meet any working collie breeders. All the people that have been referred to me are mostly sport breeders because I met them through flyball/agility....

I tried to find contacts through the CBCA members list and emailed almost all of them in my area but I've only gotten 2 or 3 responses either saying they don't have any dogs for any homes that could potentially do flyball or they want breed owning experience or I don't get any response at all. Can anyone give me some suggestions as to where I can meet working collie people and find contacts/breeders? Or feel free to PM me.


Everyone that managed to read through all that gets a cookie! Thanks for listening to me complain and I hope to get to know you guys!

#2 ShoresDog

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:46 AM

You are in luck, in that there is a very good border collie rescue in Vancouver. Start working with TDBCR now -- get to know them, do some volunteering, etc. And then when your time comes, they'll know you and help you get the best possible match for your situation and the kind of dog you want. While you're still a student and have limited time, volunteering can be very rewarding and fun, give you an opportunity to get to know some good border collies and border collie people.

As to an introduction to the board and its philosophy, please be sure to read the Read Me First! link at the top of each board. It will give you an understanding of this board's philosophy of border collies, so you know what to expect here. Basically, this board supports any and all activities that owners do with their border collies -- flyball, agility, herding, etc. -- except one, and that is conformation showing, which is strongly, strongly disapproved. While this board supports all kinds of fun activities, the board supports only one rationale for border collie breeding -- and that is breeding to a working standard, and that would be defined as USBCHA Open trial success or very reliable usefulness in the ranch/farm work setting.

Welcome aboard! Your little Pap is darling! What's her name? If I ever get a little dog, it's going to be a Papillon!

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#3 cmsgyay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 02:41 AM

Thanks for the reply! :D

My Pap's name is Nia (pronounced nye-ah).

I understand the philosophy behind this board :) I've been lurking for a while haha. I'm looking for a working bred dog, to do some sports but mainly as a pet.

I've actually met quite a lot of sport bred collies, some have been great dogs, and some I wouldn't want to own. Can't settle down, won't sleep at night, paces all night long, etc. I haven't met too many working bred collies since I've never been to a herding trial but from the 3 or 4 I have met, they settled much easier, just chilled out beside their owner/handler when they're not doing anything but they were on when it was their turn! Loved those dogs :D

I know about TDBCR and I would actually love to volunteer for them but from checking the website, I couldn't find anything on volunteering other than fostering which I cannot do at this point as I still live in my mom's house and she still has a no dog over 15 lbs rule in her house. I definitely wouldn't mind doings things like walking, playing, socializing, brushing, etc!

I'll try to shoo them an email. This is excellent! I love working and spending time with collies!

Edit: I just wanted to add though that I'm 90% set on a breeder this time around. We've had rescues in the past and breeder dogs as well but I'd like to raise the pup from 8 weeks old because I love raising pups my own way. But most importantly because of a recent very devastating rescue that my friend and I went through with her puppy. The puppy (sheltie) was rescued at 3 months of age. She had kennel cough the first week, no big deal that's common with rescue dogs. Treated it with antibiotics. A month later this dog has terrible terrible diarrhea, the vet checks her and says she's fine, lots of antibiotics cured it. Puppy still has intermittent diarrhea with vomiting, the vet doesn't know why and they tried a few different kinds of foods. Then she starts urinating blood and ended up with a blood transfusion and she was also vomiting and absolutely refused to eat. More vet care shows she has deformed kidneys which he believed were genetic and her kidneys were shutting down, nothing they could do. She was PTS. She was always a sickly puppy and it was just such a heartbreak to see her suffer through all this. I was with my friend from day one when she fell in love with the puppy at the rescue to the day that she was PTS at the vet's office, we just couldn't be more devastated. She was an awesome puppy, seemed pretty healthy and the vet said she was fine before she came home...

I'm not saying all rescue dogs will turn out like this of course and I'm not saying breeder dogs will be any better but I'd like to do everything in my power to avoid a situation like this. Plus I am getting a dog in hopes of doing some sports and herding so structure is very very important with well tested parents the odds are just a bit better. If the puppy doesn't turn out, I have no problems with having just a pet but I don't think I can go through what just happened with the rescue puppy again so soon. I really want to try to take as much precaution as possible to avoid a situation like this, this time around. Maybe in a few more years I'll feel a bit better and get another rescue.

I definitely want to do some volunteering and spending more time with the breed though so hopefully the TDBCR member will chime in and let me know how :)

#4 Tommy Coyote

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:44 AM

I think it was Sue who said once that getting a puppy is always a crap shoot. And she is right. You just never know.

I have had several rescues and three had problems and 3 didn't. They were all older so I knew what the problems were before I took them so it wasn't a surprise. Dogs with problems take a lot of time.

I just got a new rescue. He's 2 and he's a great dog. He has a really good temperment and is very stable. He gets along with my other dogs. He's not afraid of thunderstorms. And he is really a fun dog. He learns really fast. He has some problems because he was just kind of left to his own devices in the back yard and we are working on those.

#5 cmsgyay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:05 AM

I do understand getting a puppy is a crap shoot but I just feel a bit better knowing the parents are health tested, and I'm able to see the parents, siblings, possibly offspring to see what kind of dogs have been produced in the past.

It's just that after the last rescue experience, I'm going to go with a breeder this time around. I'm sure I will have more rescues in the future though.

#6 Maralynn

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:40 PM

Volunteer with rescue for a couple years and your puppy resolve might waver :D I keep intending to get a pup and now I'm on adult dog #3! But anyways... A good working breeder in your neck ou the woods is Diane Pagel - Delta Bluez Stock Dogs. I'm on my phone so i can't post a link but she is a member here. i would contact her and also try to get involved with TDBCR. Between those you should be able to learn more about the breed and get to know some good working breeders

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#7 MrSnappy

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:36 PM

I understand the philosophy behind this board :) I've been lurking for a while haha. I'm looking for a working bred dog, to do some sports but mainly as a pet.


If you're looking for mainly a pet, there are any number of rescue dogs that would fit that bill.

I know about TDBCR and I would actually love to volunteer for them but from checking the website, I couldn't find anything on volunteering other than fostering


That's because about 97% of our rescue efforts are focused on rehoming dogs. You don't drive and you can't foster, so unfortunately, there isn't much else for a volunteer to do with our organization. At this point, pretty well all we do is foster dogs and adopt them out. We aren't a shelter, so volunteer dog walking for us and such isn't an option. I wish I had some suggestions for you, but I don't.

The puppy (sheltie) was rescued at 3 months of age. She had kennel cough the first week, no big deal that's common with rescue dogs.


No it's not.

I'm not saying all rescue dogs will turn out like this of course and I'm not saying breeder dogs will be any better but I'd like to do everything in my power to avoid a situation like this. Plus I am getting a dog in hopes of doing some sports and herding


You can do all those things with a rescue dog too and since it's a border collie you're after, it's unlikely you'd end up with a dog with some kind of bizarre genetic defect like the sheltie. Shelties are overbred, very common puppymill dogs and since sheltie rescue is not active here, I assume your friend got the pup from one of the many importer-slash-rescues popping up all over the Lower Mainland.

I've been rescuing border collies in BC for over 12 years now. Puppies with fatal genetic issues simply don't happen in the breed in rescue.

If you want to buy a puppy, say "I want to buy a puppy" - Don't say "I want to buy a puppy because rescue dogs are unhealthy - not that I'm saying rescue dogs are unhealthy, but you know, that's why I don't want one." Rescue dogs aren't, generally, unhealthy ... not in this breed anyway. Not here.

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#8 cmsgyay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:47 PM

If you want to buy a puppy, say "I want to buy a puppy" - Don't say "I want to buy a puppy because rescue dogs are unhealthy - not that I'm saying rescue dogs are unhealthy, but you know, that's why I don't want one." Rescue dogs aren't, generally, unhealthy ... not in this breed anyway. Not here.


I didn't say rescue dogs are not healthy at all! I said that I understand most rescues don't have any problems but I feel more secure with dogs that I know the history of THIS TIME AROUND. I said I had a very painful experience with a rescue just very recently so I plan to buy a puppy this time. I don't blame the rescue at all and I will rescue more dogs in the future. Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong at all with rescue dogs.

I'm sorry that I came across to you that way, but that's not my intent at all.....

#9 MaryP

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

I probably should just stay out of it for fear of being accused of trying to force rescue on someone. But, I agree with RDM. If you want to buy a puppy, that's your prerogative. You can do whatever you want. But, just admit that instead of claiming you are trying to avoid a tragic experience like your friend went through. You aren't guaranteeing that you'll avoid any future issues (health or otherwise) by going to a breeder versus going to a rescue or a shelter, especially when you are talking puppy versus adult dog. Hey, I love puppies, too, and all four of my current dogs were obtained from rescues or shelters as puppies. I'm a sucker for a puppy. I admit it.

Two of my good friends have added dogs to their families over the past few years (not BCs, but other breeds). They both talked about possibly going the rescue route, but both went the breeder route in the end. Friend 1 did all her research and tried to control as many variables as possible. She bought a puppy and planned to train her for agility. The puppy ended up with elbow dysplasia and cannot do agility. A couple of years later, she bought another puppy. She did all her research and tried to control as many variables as possible. She hoped to do agility with the second dog. The puppy blew out a knee before it was a year and a half old. It's future as an agility dog is still uncertain. Friend number two was DETERMINED that she was going to research to death the breeders and lines so that she would get a good, healthy puppy. Her previous dog passed away from a liver tumor at age 12. Not all that unusual, but she was determined that her next dog would be genetically perfect and destined to live a long life. That puppy had nothing but problems for the first 6 months of it's life. She was at numerous vets and spent boat loads of money trying to figure out why it was so sickly. Eventually, the puppy grew out of all the health problems, but it is a behavioral nightmare. It's lucky to have ended up with my friend, because most other dog owners would have given up on it a long time ago. I can safely say that she did not, at all, get the dog that she thought she was going to get.

So, yes, even when you go to a breeder, it's gonna be a crap shoot in many ways. Not everything that can be genetic is tested for or can be tested for. Again, if you want to buy a puppy from a breeder, that's your right. But, it's still a crap shoot.
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#10 gcv-border

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 02:42 PM

Welcome to the boards. Good Luck in finding your next dog (be it puppy or rescue). Since you say you are still about 2-3 years away from being able to own the type of dog you want, you have plenty of time to continue researching the breed, breeders, and rescue groups. Your ideas of the type of dog you hope for may continue to evolve also. But don't be so tunnel-vision focused that you let the "right" dog slip by - as you probably have read from the many stories posted here by board members who say that they wanted a certain type of dog only to end up with another type that is the perfect fit.

I hope you can get little Nia into an agility class because she looks like she would LOVE it. Do you know anyone that would mentor you as time allows? Another suggestion is to look into some DVDs that teach foundations for agility.

Nia will be a great dog as your first agility dog since she looks very drivey and fast. I have seen a couple of Paps at trials that just blew me away. Their handlers were youngish (mid-20s - mid-30s) female handlers that were in great shape, and they had to work just as hard to keep up with their Paps as most of the BC handlers. If a drivey Pap came my way, I think I could convince my husband that it doesn't really count as a extra dog. :D

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#11 cmsgyay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 02:49 PM

So, yes, even when you go to a breeder, it's gonna be a crap shoot in many ways. Not everything that can be genetic is tested for or can be tested for. Again, if you want to buy a puppy from a breeder, that's your right. But, it's still a crap shoot.


I absolutely understand. I've seen a few people end up with dogs from great breeders that had terrible health problems too.

I'm not 100% against a rescue, if a perfect rescue puppy comes along, I might not be able to say no. The rescues we've had in the past, a few were not planned at all, they just seemed like the right ones and we just knew so that could happen again.

I would still like to contact breeders as well though. I do frequently visit the websites of the rescues in the area to see what dogs/puppies they have. When I move out, I'd love to start fostering as well. Since my dad moved out a few years ago, my mom doesn't really like big dogs and I've been unable to convince her to have another dog, let alone a medium sized dog in the house. My dad isn't here to support me either :(

#12 Serena+Eluane B.C.

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

In defense of CMSGYAY, rescues are not for all folks. A rescue dog really needs the Perfect Angel to come along into their lives to deal with their specific background or issues. I have the "Let the Good Lord Decide" attitude...It's amazing how things work out! People who rescue are angels in my eyes and most of us really don't have it to have that extra set of wings, :D ....And it's better to trust one's instinct on what dog really calls out to you and what one can handle.

Rescue places though are wonderful resources for information. News travels fast through reputable associations and they quickly let you know who you can trust and count on as a good breeder.

Buying a puppy is not a crap shoot if one knows this. I feel a breeder should have ABCA lineage, but there are always bad apples in a good barrel. I got my little Eluane from a horrible!!! breeder who had ABCA papers but as an inexperienced first-time owner, even though I researched for over a year about Border Collies and even attended a puppy obedience class without a puppy, lol! and read cover-to-cover 12 dog books dedicated to owning and training dogs both in agility and in behavior, I still made the dreaded stupid mistake of trusting Puppy Finder ratings. EGADS!!!!! The name of the breeder is Nightshades Border Collies near Wichita, Kansas in Douglass (you can find them online uggggh!), so if they still have those ABCA association, they should be banned. They have no dogs who do herding, they have way too many dogs, conditions are not that clean either (unsold dogs are penned up). The saddest thing was how they treated Eluane's mother Oaktre Cheyenne 5 months later, but that's another long story. Poor Eluane had 5 full-blown infections of Roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, Giardia, and Coccidia. They were supposed to worm her but didn't! It took me forever to get my ABCA papers too (2 months of waiting). Maybe because I'm Asian American they thought they could get away with bloody murder. I had paid for Eluane in full too, at just 3 weeks' old, waiting to drive to Douglass to pick her up at 7 weeks, and she was very expensive $550 total. Prices on Border collies have probably risen since then...

http://www.nightshadesbordercollies.com/

This proves that websites can be completely deceiving and that you cannot trust anyone until you talk to a Rescue Organization or even ABCA to help refer you.....A breeder's website can always lie and make up stories about their dogs. Real owners don't lie and neither will a good, responsible, and very experienced breeder. IMHO, most border collies should not be bred unless they have outstanding mental keeness and discernment, great steady love-to-please and drive, good temperament-the ability to settle and to listen, and top scoring hips and eye (no physical weaknesses)...It's too easy for many owners to have inflated views of how special and smart their dog is, and it takes a rare person, and very special breeder to be completely impartial and unbiased. Keenness is actually measureable-- and that is the ability for the dog to learn new things right away, the intricacies of the commands, the ability to work the field when herding...this is to preserve the best characteristics of the breed and for genetics' sake. Other signs are what accommplishments has the breeder's dog made. Eluane's Granddad was supposed to be Rockin' G Spurs and yes he did have real credentials in the photos all that..but just because you've got the lineage, the descendents can be abused by an irresponsible breeder who purchased the offspring of a good breeder. These are some of the complications that can occur. Always purchase direct from the "real" breeder.

So please CMSGYAY, get to know the rescue folks and ask them for advice on breeders or owners with great Border Collies you can talk to about where they purchased their border collies from.

With puppies there is a very special time of joy. I will always need a puppy because the puppy stages are just soooo cute. The way they cuddle grunt the puppy breath, I even still have Eluane's original puppy teeth, lol! :blink: So some of us are just plain puppy addicts, haha! Rescue Adoption puppies I would love to have, but I was a Rescue Reject at the time. I saw 4 adorable puppies at MOKAN, and wrote immmediately! I lived in an apartment and I was a first-time dog owner too! I did write that I had done tons of research, I lived just 5 minutes from work and could take off anytime to help take care of a new puppy and that I could schedule 3 weeks of vacation to train my new puppy, I explained all about my books, my careful research, the puppy classes, how I would train and spend time with the new pup, all to no avail, lol! I never got any reply to my letter or application, lol! But there is a happy ending...Eluane became the Perfect Dog for me!

#13 juliepoudrier

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:21 PM

Serena,
No one is saying that rescue is for everyone. The complaint is about the common refrain about not getting a dog from a rescue because of XYZ friend or self or whatever who got a sick dog from rescue. doG Forbid! A sick dog from rescue, ergo don't get a dog from rescue. I don't know why people feel a need to provide an excuse, especially such a lame one as that, to justify buying a puppy. You (the general you) wanna buy a puppy? Then buy a puppy! But don't trot out some sad story about the rescue with horrible issues as justification for wanting a puppy. You don't need to justify. It's a free country. If you want a puppy, get a puppy. Seriously. And as for the idea that rescues need only special people, I don't consider myself a special angel, and although one of my rescues has issues, the others did not. Go figure.

IMHO, most border collies should not be bred unless they have outstanding mental keeness and discernment, great steady love-to-please and drive, good temperament-the ability to settle and to listen, and top scoring hips and eye (no physical weaknesses)...

Um, it seems that you have left out the most important criterion of all: working ability. Sorry, but people who breed for anything else aren't what many of us would call good breeders.

As for your comments about "puppy as a crapshoot," the point is that you can't guarantee anything, even with health tests out the wazoo. Parents with perfect hips can produce dysplastic puppies. Lines with no evidence of epilepsy can produce epileptic pups. Breedings that have produced great dogs can also produce dogs that don't live up to the same standard. Dogs with border collie collapse can seemingly appear out of nowhere. Parents with wonderful temperaments can produce snarky or fearful pups. And even reputable, experienced breeders can produce puppies with issues. Genetics is not an exact science when applied to the art of breeding. You (the breeder) tries to stack the deck in his/her favor, but that doesn't mean that every puppy produced is going to be perfect for its owner's chosen occupation.

To believe otherwise is to be rather naive. As for your supposition that a breeder took advantage of you because of your race, well, I'm just amazed you would even make such an accusation. It boggles the mind. They sold you a puppy. Apparently all the extensive research you did led you to a bad breeder. They took advantage of you because of your ignorance. Bad breeders will sell to anyone. Money is what matters.

J.

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#14 MrSnappy

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:04 PM

In defense of CMSGYAY, rescues are not for all folks. A rescue dog really needs the Perfect Angel to come along into their lives to deal with their specific background or issues. I have the "Let the Good Lord Decide" attitude...It's amazing how things work out! People who rescue are angels in my eyes and most of us really don't have it to have that extra set of wings, :D


Can someone lend me the head-banging emoticon please?

Serena, at the risk of mincing words, what a load of tripe in that paragraph. Do you really think that long time rescuers are coming on this forum and singing the praises of messed up dogs to newbie handlers? Like really? Is that what you think us folks who rescue dogs are trying to do - pawn off problem dogs on unsuspecting novices? Do you think the people on this forum continue to recommend rescues because they think new border collie owners should be saddled with problematic dogs as a first option? You must not think very highly of the forum members.

Loads of rescue dogs are just completely well adjusted, "normal" dogs that need a different home from the one they had. They don't need "angels" - they just need homes. People give up dogs for any multitude of reasons, and more often than not it's got nothing to do with the dog. Are there problem dogs in rescue? Sure. Is a responsible rescuer going to give one of those problems to someone who is unprepared for such a dog? What do you think the answer to that question is?

There are lots and lots of nice dogs in rescues that just need good homes. They make excellent pets, super sports partners and sometimes even nice working dogs. That's the reason people recommend them as a go-to for someone interested in getting a border collie.

They have no dogs who do herding, they have way too many dogs, conditions are not that clean either (unsold dogs are penned up).


And yet you bought a puppy from them anyway. Why don't you own that?

RDM
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#15 Maralynn

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:04 PM

FWIW my youngest dog was the only one that came through an actual rescue. Nothing at all wrong with her. In fact she has been the most adaptable dog out of the three I've had. She is an eager, sweet, athletic, stable, take anywhere dog that loves to train. And she was that way from the get go.

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#16 cmsgyay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:20 PM

Well I still have 2-3 years to figure out if I'm going to end up with a rescue or a breeder dog. I'm not going to dwell too much on it right now I guess. I think for me, meeting, training and spending time with more of the breed is the most important right now.

What I do is know regardless of rescue or breeder, I am looking for a puppy, less than a year old but preferably under 6 months. I'm looking for a male because I currently have a bitch and I prefer to have dog and bitch together instead of bitch/bitch. Also the pup will be taught/has to have good manners with smaller dogs because of Nia, I do not want to endanger her in anyway. I don't think that's too much to ask from either breeder or rescue. I'm sure with either I'll have to wait awhile to find the perfect pup.

Also just to be safe, I think regardless of if I get a breeder pup or a rescue pup, I will get their hips and elbows OFA'd before doing any agility or flyball because I do not want to aggravate an existing problem that I didn't know of in the first place. I don't want to push them to go faster and cause the dog pain since dogs are so tolerant and often won't express their pain until it's really bad.

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

#17 Serena+Eluane B.C.

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:28 PM

oops, yes, Julie, I definitely forgot to say "working ability" Duh! on me!

Hey, if anyone wants to copy the brick wall, here it is, shame on me for forgetting to say "working ability"...
Posted Image

Right click on the emoticon, copy and put the img alt symbol tags around it...

that was definitely stupid of me to forget...

And you can add this one to my hastily worded paragraphs about Angel rescuers....

Posted Image

But really what I meant to say, but got misunderstood is that Rescuers do such an awesome job whereas most us succumb to "I want a puppy and it's gotta be mine from the get-go." The reason why is that we crave the baby puppy stages.
I never meant to suggest that rescue organizations were trying to cram unwanted dogs onto new first-time owners of B.Cs....There are tons of wonderful, sweet-tempered Rescue dogs that just had owners who didn't know any better or worse yet, were irresponsible in not understanding the breed.

But no, I did clearly state that as a completely naive and first-time dog owner, I did not have the knowledge and experience to go to a rescue organization to find a good breeder. I did not know what the farm looked like. The farm was sooo far from where I live at, several hours' drive away, and the website looked real attractive, photos of the farm looked "good". As I keep explaining websites can be deceiving, Puppy Finder had a "five-star" rating for Night Shade Border Collies farm, and obviously some folks were happy with their dogs unless the stories were completely made up (which might have been so) hence my Asian American comment and my paranoid suspicion that if all these people were happy then why was my pup so dreadfully abused!! Those huge worms were a nightmare to see on such a tiny pup. It was so sad!....I had no idea until I came to the actual farm to pick up Eluane that yikes! how can all these dogs be penned up in this muddy locale! (the unsold older dogs 2+ years old)....

I may have said some stupid things but not all things were stupid....I am just letting people know the dangers of not cross-referencing an important organization like ABCA or Rescue organizations for credentials. This is important and valid advice from someone who learned it the hard way...

Also Julie, my dad is a scientist. The genes you are talking about are recessive problem genes that are several generations back and many of those genes have nothing to do with the fault of the breeder. Those problems do not suddenly arise without some long ago gene having an effect...And yes, very responsible breeders do get the lash-back when a hidden gene suddenly flares up...It can skip several generations then BAM it hits!

That's why it's important never to breed that specific line as soon as it shows up. If the pup doesn't have the ideal temperament or physicality or there is a risk factor involved there needs to be a paper to the new owner not to breed the pup and honesty is crucial to discuss risks involved. I also maintain the heritage of never breeding a non-working pup.

#18 airbear

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 11:30 PM

As you probably have seen, Vancouver isn't exactly a hot-bed for working border collies. I'm pretty sure I had one of the few when I lived in Kits. Posted Image That you don't have a car (or don't drive, can't remember which one) will make it hard for you to get to any trials because there's nothing local (ie in the 604 area code). In BC, our trials are on the Island or in the Interior. There used to be a trial in Langley but it hasn't been held in years. There's a couple in the States that aren't too far (near Mt Vernon, for example, close to outlet malls).

The handful of working breeders that I know and would recommend will sell to sport homes, assuming they are appropriate for the dog. However, these folks breed infrequently. Since you're looking 2-3 years out, I'd recommend narrowing down your preferred breeders then get yourself on a waiting list.

Not all breeders OFA hips. Some PennHip (which is my preference for hips), some just get their vets to x-ray their breeding stock and interpret the films, and some don't x-ray at all. Most everyone tests for CEA. That's probably the extent of testing.

I suppose if you gave me your papillon, I could bring you out herding some time. Posted Image I've always thought Collie Nation could use a little dog.
Kristi
Wick, Lou and Rex
Bear, forever in my heart
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The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams - Eleanor Roosevelt

#19 cmsgyay

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:03 AM

As you probably have seen, Vancouver isn't exactly a hot-bed for working border collies. I'm pretty sure I had one of the few when I lived in Kits. Posted Image That you don't have a car (or don't drive, can't remember which one) will make it hard for you to get to any trials because there's nothing local (ie in the 604 area code). In BC, our trials are on the Island or in the Interior. There used to be a trial in Langley but it hasn't been held in years. There's a couple in the States that aren't too far (near Mt Vernon, for example, close to outlet malls).

The handful of working breeders that I know and would recommend will sell to sport homes, assuming they are appropriate for the dog. However, these folks breed infrequently. Since you're looking 2-3 years out, I'd recommend narrowing down your preferred breeders then get yourself on a waiting list.

Not all breeders OFA hips. Some PennHip (which is my preference for hips), some just get their vets to x-ray their breeding stock and interpret the films, and some don't x-ray at all. Most everyone tests for CEA. That's probably the extent of testing.


I don't have a car right now, can't afford one since I can't work that much (full time student) and have to pay off all the school fees.

The problem is this darn area! I want to go to a trial or two sooo badly but I can't get to any of them! The closest I've seen is like a 3 hour's drive away or more! My preference is really to get a car soon and drive down to some trials to really spend some time with working dogs. However, that probably won't happen very soon. My timing never works out with trials either. School tues/wed/thurs all day, work sat, sun, mon. Only day I could go is monday and what are the chances a trial close to me is exactly on Monday? lol.

I'm hoping by the summer of next year I could at least drag some friends out with me or possibly drag my mom if she's willing.

PennHip is fine with me too, I too have seen breeders with PennHip certification. I'm a bit iffy about vet xrays though, since that's not their specialty and there's no second opinion, I just feel a bit insecure about it. If I really loved a breeder for everything else but they didn't OFA or PennHip I might consider a vet certification if 2 different vets certified the dog.

Are you still in Vancouver?

Edit: You're welcome to borrow Nia when she's being a little snot but you can't have her :P She's all miiine. I seriously don't think I could've ended up with a better little dog! Extremely focused, drivey and quick to learn. Plus she has great ball and toy drive too! And little dogs aren't even my thing but I love this girl!

A video of this girl fetching

Fetch :)

#20 airbear

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:18 AM

PennHip is fine with me too, I too have seen breeders with PennHip certification. I'm a bit iffy about vet xrays though, since that's not their specialty and there's no second opinion, I just feel a bit insecure about it. If I really loved a breeder for everything else but they didn't OFA or PennHip I might consider a vet certification if 2 different vets certified the dog.

Vet certification? From 2 vets? Seriously? All I'm talking about is getting the dog x-rayed, the vet looking at the x-rays and saying "yeah, that looks good" or "hmm, kinda shallow" or some such. If the breeder wanted to get certification, he/she would go OFA/PennHip (or WCVM). Incidentally, there are some vets that specialize in positioning a dog's hips so that they look their best for OFA evaluation. That's why I chose to get my dogs' hips scored through PennHip, which is much more objective.

But seriously, if you're going to approach working border collie breeders with a list of what you will and won't accept in terms of testing/health certification, you may come off as a bit, er, high-maintenance. As others have said, OFA Excellent (or PennHip 95+ percentile) parents can and do produce offspring that are clinically dysplastic. If you are that concerned about structure and hip scores, a youngish dog (12-18 months) is your best bet. Doesn't have to be a rescue, you can often find a fairly nice started stock dog at around that age.
Kristi
Wick, Lou and Rex
Bear, forever in my heart
Our Photo Blog

The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams - Eleanor Roosevelt


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