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Border Collie structure evaluation


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#61 Pam Wolf

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:44 AM

[quote name='ShoresDog' timestamp='1312001976' post='395091']
Double-dog dares! :lol: :lol: :lol: (Christmas Story fans will recall the trouble that the unrefusable double-dog dare can cause...) Where's a good picture of Lone??

Actually the kid(Flick?) got into trouble by bypassing the double dog and going right into the triple dog dare!
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#62 Pippin's person

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:53 AM

I sincerely doubt that anyone posting there has had any real experience with livestock or stockwork.

I am grateful I wasn't eating or drinking when I read this one:

"The head is a very important part of the Border Collie, and not just an initial impression! It has to be able to carry that wonderful brain in a flat skull, and the eye placement is vital for a dog that does this job - they need the scope to see to the sides as well as in front, and also they must be able to take a glancing blow from a hoof etc without being smashed straight in the eye! Ears can be in any position as long as they show response to stimulus. I don't think a BC with eyes on the front of its face could use them to move sheep efficiently!"


That one caught my attention, too, Sue. Mostly because it captures exactly the process through which instinctual abilities are lost in human controlled breeding programs. All kidding aside, at least some (maybe most) folks involved in conformation breeding sincerely believe they can preserve instinctual ability this way. That group has over 1200 members.
Robin: One of the two people
Renzo: First dog, resident non-BC
Pippin, Rafe, Kyzer, Lad, Zac, and Scout: the BC crew
Fox, Lars, Milo, Xeno, Callie, and Barn Kitty: Kitties
Rest in Peace:  Theka, Macchi, Ness, Fritz, Inji and Tansy

#63 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:35 AM

Yes, it is a good-sized, enthusiastic, and (I'm sure) influential (at least among its adherents) group.

I never understand how people can pick apart the minutae of how a dog looks or is built, and equate this-that-or-the-other particular shape with the dog being well-suited or ill-suited for a job - all without actually working a dog to a high level to see how well-suited it is (or isn't). Those same people can take a photo of a useful dog from decades back that resembles the show standard and proudly proclaim that there is the proof! (And, in the case I saw on that group, not even spell the dog's name right when it's right there on the photo, along with other famous dogs that certainly do not meet any sort of arbitrary show standard.)

Don't these people realize that they are going about it all backwards? The work defines and proves the dog, not the "look" or the written "standard" that someone has sat down and written (most likely, with little real understanding of what makes a dog useful).

The show ring results in exaggeration - pure and simple. You can look at virtually any breed and see that it does. Bassetts? Once a hunting breed that could do more than lounge on the floor or shuffle around a yard. Bulldogs (of all sorts) - brave, loyal, and once physically strong and active. German Shepherd Dogs? Rough (and Smooth) Collies? Descended from useful dogs but now not much more than a vehicle for a coat. What about Pugs, Pekinese, other flat-faced dogs? The list is endless.
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#64 KnottyClarence

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:51 AM

Watching that FB list is like watching a car accident in slow motion. Can't look at it, can't look away. Nauseating, oddly fascinating. What ARE they talking about? Seems like every person on the list wants to put up a picture of their favorite dog and have the list tell them it's a beautiful dog and therefore a great dog. What does this mean?

#65 Journey

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:55 AM

And they have their doubts about Stella! Not a border collie "color"...so is color *now* important :)
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#66 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:58 AM

It means exactly what you said - everyone there wants to put up a picture of their dog and have everyone tell them just how beautiful and perfect it is. And quite a few want to find something they can consider a flaw and point it out, but in the nicest possible way, of course.

It rather reminds me of mothers and beauty pageants for children (curl 'em up, make 'em up, dress 'em up, and get on out there and beat all the other little darlings), and that's not a compliment.
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#67 urge to herd

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 09:59 AM

I went, I looked, I gagged. I've always been a form follows function type. I've never worked a dog and even I know that the proof is in the result in almost any endeavor.

It's like looking at Fabio, and expecting him to be able to frame up a house, or hang sheet rock all day, just because he has bulky, shiny muscles.

What it is, actually, is looking at the facade of something, anything, and judging the funtionality on the paint job. Sheesh.


Ruth

#68 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 10:01 AM

And they have their doubts about Stella! Not a border collie "color"...so is color *now* important :)

"Color" is always important - when the unimportant things take on importance. :blink:

As for Stella, haven't they ever seen an ACD crossed with a hyena before? That could work stock *and* be beautiful? And if she was actually and ACD crossed with a hyena, and could work stock to a high standard, she could always ROM! :P
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#69 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 10:02 AM

It's like looking at Fabio, and expecting him to be able to frame up a house, or hang sheet rock all day, just because he has bulky, shiny muscles.

What it is, actually, is looking at the facade of something, anything, and judging the funtionality on the paint job. Sheesh.


Ruth

That Fabio comment - :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, my, I really do need to get to work and do something useful!
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#70 grenzehund

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:31 AM

This was a comment that startled me:

" But what I do know is, if more people like me who are passionate about not letting the show and working lines diverge, were given more support and encouragement by people like you, then I guess the future of the BC would be healthier, if not entirely safeguarded."

and what exactly do the show lines contribute to the breed?

#71 Little Bo Boop

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:33 AM

Oh my! Stella and I are tired!!! Defending the working Border Collie is tough work!!! ;-) I couldn't believe it when Laura joined the group, and thought, wow, bet Stella would go over well there LOL hadn't seen all the posts here ;-) Crazy....
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#72 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 11:55 AM

Betty - You made excellent, polite, honest remarks but they are falling on largely deaf ears. An A for effort!

Or should I just give the credit to Miss Stelly?
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#73 juliepoudrier

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 12:34 PM

Yeah, I especially liked the comment about the "crippled working dogs." Okay, whatever. You can't even begin to have a meaningful conversation with people who think that way.

J.

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#74 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 12:45 PM

Yeah, I especially liked the comment about the "crippled working dogs." Okay, whatever. You can't even beging to have a meaningful conversation with people who think that way.

J.

Where're the "really like" and "agree with this" buttons?

How can you ever say that selecting dogs for ability to work (and that is not just instinct, it's health, stamina, soundness, biddability, intelligence, and so on) is promoting unsoundness? Oh, because people like that think that breeding for the work is only breeding for one single aspect, instinct, perhaps? How could someone be so ignorant?

The comments on that group are only good for a laugh, and only if you don't realize how many people totally believe in them. I guess this is my mean-spiritedness showing again.
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#75 Pippin's person

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 12:58 PM

Well, having looked there again (seriously now for the *last* time), one of the problems seems to be the belief that breeding for working ability is breeding for a single trait. That is a new component of this never-ending issue I haven't encountered before.
Robin: One of the two people
Renzo: First dog, resident non-BC
Pippin, Rafe, Kyzer, Lad, Zac, and Scout: the BC crew
Fox, Lars, Milo, Xeno, Callie, and Barn Kitty: Kitties
Rest in Peace:  Theka, Macchi, Ness, Fritz, Inji and Tansy

#76 Little Bo Boop

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:06 PM

Well the one gal compared breeding for looks and breeding for working ability as doing the same amount of damage to the breed , and that working breeders were guilty of breeding to extremes, I called her on it and asked her to show me an example but of course she didn't reply....
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#77 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:06 PM

I think that many show people feel that if you are breeding "for working ability alone" (as we often put it), they do not realize (or admit) that that includes temperment, soundness, instinct, focus, biddability, intelligence, stamina, health, and all those other *necessities*. That's because they don't understand working ability and what it means and requires, IMO. And I'm not sure they want to understand because that would not support their position that breeding to a physical "standard" is the ultimate in responsible breeding.
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#78 PSmitty

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:07 PM

Yay, Betty! Great job. You did your best. Maybe somebody out there reading will have some food for thought, at least.
Paula
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#79 Sue R

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:10 PM

Well the one gal compared breeding for looks and breeding for working ability as doing the same amount of damage to the breed , and that working breeders were guilty of breeding to extremes, I called her on it and asked her to show me an example but of course she didn't reply....

Nope, didn't she say she was done with the discussion?

I have myself been blind about more than one issue over the years - but I think this woman takes that to an extreme by being determinedly blind to reality.

PS - Geesh, talk about wasting the day (or big chunks of it) when I have lots of work staring me in the face (and not even the excuse of a party night last night...)
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

Celt, Megan, and Dan

"When the chips are down, watch where you step."

"The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything. They just make the best of everything." - author unknown

#80 brady's mom

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:11 PM

And they have their doubts about Stella! Not a border collie "color"...so is color *now* important :)


Wow...their contradictions are PAINFUL.
Kristi -- the naive border collie student [br]
Brady -- the king of the loveseat and master of all things tennis ball.


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