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#21 Debbie Meier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:54 AM

Are timed/points trials considered a "full National style course"?



Always been told yes, so long as there is a outrun/lift or gather and drive legs. The fetch is sometimes in question, seen trials where the dog lifts and then cross drives them before the stock comes to the handler, but that would also be in line with a double lift, which could be considered as two cross drives then a fetch from the center of the field.


That was why I pointed out the course description that was approved by the USBCHA BOD, even it would allow for arena trials, so long as they are set up in a triangle format with drive legs.

I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers. IMO, it is left up to the individual handler to determine if their dog can do the work before taking up the National Finals adventure
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#22 Debbie Meier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:07 AM

A few years back we held a point time sheep dog trial in an open field, the outrun was 250 yards, there were fetch panels, drive panels and a pen. Also a creek that you had to cross twice. The only difference between it and trials that we go to that are judged is that the handlers worked extra hard to get the sheep back on line so that they could make the panels. The handlers/dogs with sloppy work either lost points or took longer, the cream rose to the top, smooth controlled work with straight lines won the day.

That trial was in early June, later that month there was a judged trial on a little smaller field, the same handlers were at the top of the results. There were actually more wrecks in the judged trial then there were in the point/time trial, to a certain degree the requirement of having to get the sheep through the panels slowed handlers down and they kept a tighter grip on their dogs.

eta: I just remembered another thing that made the P/T trial more difficult, the sheep were set from one side of the field exhausted on the other, the exhaust had no gate and was unmanned, it was an alley entrance at the corner of the field leading back to the set out pen areas. Lose your sheep and they get to the exauhst alley your done. And the sheep knew where the exhaust alley was.

The quality of work still falls on the shoulders of the dog handlers, not the format in which the dogs are placed.
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#23 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 11:36 AM

I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers.

That is the issue with the rules, they are not clear.

For example: If a rule is not within "Section 5: Open & Nursery Finals" or clearly states it only applies to the Finals does that mean the rule applies to all sanctioned trials, or do rules only apply to the Finals unless clearly stating the rule applies to all sanction trials?

"Section 14: Entries" and "Section 15: Runner Order" are not part of "Section 5: Open & Nursery Finals"; neither clearly state these rules apply only to the Finals or to all sanctioned trials. Does this mean all trials must charge $150 for nursery, $200 for open, follow the running order drawing instructions, and assign dog names to every draw or do these rules only apply to the Finals? Or perhaps we can pick and choose how to interpret and apply the rules, this one only applies to the Finals and that one applies to all sanctioned trials.

My interpretation of National style course is judged like the Finals regardless of the size of the course or the having all the elements of the Finals (the Maltese cross or chute, occasionally part of open courses, are not part of the Finals). Without the rules clearly stating we are only left with people's interpretation of the rules (yours, mine, and those listing qualifying points).

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#24 PennyT

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:49 PM

The rule is clear with regard open placement counting as a nursery qualifier; apparently we just don't enforce the rule. There's nothing wrong with that. If lack of enforcement becomes a problem with too many ill prepared young dogs qualifying only in open time and points arena trials and then being entered in the Nursery Finals, then enforcement remains an option. Not enforcing the rule is less divisive, which is a good thing.

#25 Debbie Meier

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:12 PM

The rule is clear with regard open placement counting as a nursery qualifier;


Penny, which rule are you specifically referring to?
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#26 PennyT

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 07:58 AM

"judged Open class counts as a qualifying placing"

I have been trialing for a good many years now. Unless the usage of the word "judged" has changed in the last three years, it is never used to refer to time and points trials.

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#27 juliepoudrier

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:24 AM

Penny,
This was the issue I pointed out early in this thread. A typical trial course is a typical trial course regardless of the size of the space in which it's held, but I think it's a huge stretch to say that a trial is judged because someone is standing there counting head through obstacles and keeping time. You could pull any Joe off the street to do the sort of "judging" required at a points and time trial (that is, the person wouldn't necessarily have to understand the work; they would just need to be able to the number of head that went through each obstacle and keep track of the points gained thereby). I've been at points and time cattle trials where the folks keeping track of the points and time were folks who would never be asked to judge a trial (due to their lack of experience with stock, with stockdogs, etc.). The same cannot be said of what most of us would consider a judged trial, where one (or more, at the big trials) person's *judgement* determines where a dog loses points on the course. I have often been told by adovocates of points and time trials that they prefer that venue precisely because it removes the element of judging (and therefore favoritism, intentional or not, or individual quirks--likes and dislikes--of a particular judge, the individualness of it all) from the equation. If you get the job done and get around the course with the best time, you win. There's something to be said for that, but one thing that can't be said is that the trials are truly judged trials.

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#28 Sue R

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 09:31 AM

I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers. IMO, it is left up to the individual handler to determine if their dog can do the work before taking up the National Finals adventure

I thought the point of earning "qualifying points" was to indicate that a dog/handler team was indeed "qualified" to run in National Finals. There are, sadly, teams that are only "qualified" on paper (whether they got those points in arenas, points/time and not judged, or just in field trials that really provide no indication of qualification to compete on a National levels course), and you can see them running at any National Finals. And maybe taking the place of a more qualified team that just didn't make it to enough trials to earn points. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
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#29 Debbie Meier

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:05 AM

just for the heck of it I pulled up the definition of judge... here is one of the many:

5. (verb) judge
a person appointed to decide in a/trial of skill, speed, etc., between two or more parties; an umpire; as, a judge in a horse race


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#30 Laurae

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:10 AM

Deb,
Are you arguing that points/time trials are truly judged then?

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#31 Debbie Meier

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:16 AM

as far as judging a point/time trial, it can be intense, and the same person(s) pretty much has to watch ever run it's not just calling grips. We have to make sure that the time at each obstacle is called in the same place, we have to make rulings based on what ever standards were set when it comes to daylighting, mixing, retry's, did the handler make an attempt or buzz right on by to try to save time. We've even had shed's in the Open at our p/t trials, I had to make the judgement as to whether or not the dog showed control before calling the shed. Some will call it on the split others I call it when I see control. There are also the out of control thank you's, listening to the handler complain that they were thank you'd when their dog did not grip, but...IMO the only reason it did not grip was that the dog missed, the ewe still crashed the fence, not going to allow it to go on, judges decision is final.

Anyway, it's still judged, the standard of judging is just different. Based more on if the work was completed and when based on the standard as oppose to how the work was executed.
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#32 Sue R

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:18 AM

I used to go regularly to an arena trial that was strictly points and time. Since I didn't run a dog, I was the scorekeeper. I kept the clock, kept the points, tallied the scores, and ordered the winners. I was never "the judge".

When you are running on points and time, without any form of subjective judging, you are nothing but a scorekeeper no matter what they call you. You are not a teacher just because you sit in front of a class and only hand out or collect papers, or mark answers as right or wrong, but don't teach - you are a teacher if you teach. Same idea, IMO.

I believe that to be a judge, one must make decisions, not just tally how many head go through an obstacle and how many minutes or seconds have counted down on the clock. Again, JMO, and obviously, some people's mileage does vary.

I'm with Mark, and feel that some clarification is in order, to make intent clear.

Edited to point out that Debbie's example of having someone making a decision whether or not a shed is complete is an example of a judgement, and an item in that run that appears to be judged.
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#33 Mark Billadeau

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:31 AM

For qualifying for the national finals it really doesn't matter what our interpretation of the rules is as far as what trials count (or should count) towards points. The process, as it is now, counts all HA sanctioned trials; the trial sanctioning form does not distinguish between judged and p/t trials. There is no way for the person posting the trial results to distinguish between judged and p/t trials even if p/t trials were not to be counted towards finals qualification.

In terms of being prepared for the finals, IMHO there is no difference in preparation between p/t trials or judged small farm trials on hair sheep. Not prepared is not prepared,

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#34 Pearse

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:41 AM

In terms of being prepared for the finals, IMHO there is no difference between getting qualified with p/t trials or small farm trials on hair sheep. Not prepared is not prepared.



What Mark said.

There are no titles in USBCHA dog trialling except National Sheepdog Champion (or reserve Champion - 2nd Place), National Cattledog Champion (or Reserve), or the respective Nursery Champion/ReserveChampion. If you win Meeker, or the Bluegrass, or a couple of other big trials, there's bragging rights there too but, other than Soldier Hollow, there's no pre-qualifying for those.

Other than that, no one really cares how you did except your friends and family. So, you can go to the Finals with a dog that qualified on time and points arena trials but if your dog can't do a 400+ yard outrun, drive in a straight line, shed and pen well enough to make the top 17 and win it, no one cares.

And, if it can do all those things, and wins the Finals after qualifying through time and points arena trials, no one cares how it qualified. So, it's kind of a moot point in the long run, which is why the USBCHA permits sanctioning of arena trials.

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#35 Debbie Meier

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 11:24 AM

On the big field, on the tough sheep, the cream always rises



Yes!!!


I'm going to be heading out...heading to Finals!!! Redding here we come!! If things go well, in 48 hours we should have near 1/2 of the first round of Open complete...


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#36 PennyT

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 01:59 PM

"The process, as it is now, counts all HA sanctioned trials; the trial sanctioning form does not distinguish between judged and p/t trials. There is no way for the person posting the trial results to distinguish between judged and p/t trials even if p/t trials were not to be counted towards finals qualification."

True. It is, nonetheless, untrue that time and points trials are considered to be judged trials under USBCHA rules. Anyone who doubts that we make a distinction using customary language should read the cattle finals rules where the difference is made plain by specifying different scoring systems for outrun and lift from the rest of the course.

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:14 AM

Time and point trials do not count in nursery qualifying. If they have been counted it was due to them not being reported as such. (we are talking sheep trials only) All types of scoring methods count in the open.
Notice I said nothing about "arena" trials. No weight has ever been given to distances(or lack of) in open or nursery. Herbert

#38 Pearse

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:32 AM

Time and point trials do not count in nursery qualifying. If they have been counted it was due to them not being reported as such. (we are talking sheep trials only) All types of scoring methods count in the open.
Notice I said nothing about "arena" trials. No weight has ever been given to distances(or lack of) in open or nursery. Herbert


Herbert,

I think the original question was; you can qualify for Nursery by placing in the top 20% of an Open trial, and an Open trial can be time and points, therefore if you finish in the top 20% of a USBCHA sanctioned Open trial that is a time and points trial, doesn't that count for Nursery qualifying?

There appear to be two rules that say contradictory things (Nursery trials must be judged on the one hand. Open trials don't have to be judged AND you can qualify for Nursery by placing in an Open trial).

Pearse

#39 PennyT

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:55 AM

The rules aren't contradictory at all. They state: "A Nursery dog that places in the top 20% of a full National style judged Open class counts as a qualifying placing."

Penny


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