Back to Kim & her dog (wordy!)

[Guest carol campion]

Kim

 

Let's approach your problem from a different angle. Hopefully this will help both you and anyone else with a novice dog or anyone with flanking/outrun problems see this in a new light. Your dog sounds like a fairly normal young dog?keen & fast & eager! And you are learning a LOT!

 

Your dog is not "casting" itself properly. Casting is the way a dog moves/arcs itself around the sheep. A correct cast does not necessarily mean wide. It means that the dog is adjusting its arc to the needs of the particular group of sheep. The cast moves the dog around the sheep. It does not move the sheep if it is correct. Nor does a cast imply arcing with the intention of taking control of the sheep at some point. It is merely the arc around the sheep. (This is not to be confused with mindless orbiting!)

 

Casting is the fore-runner to flanking and outrunning. Many people approach training with the idea of teaching the dog to outrun rather than to cast. An outrun has a final goal of the dog somewhere making contact with the sheep to move them. If the dog is taught this concept first, it is always leaving your side with the intention of taking control and moving the sheep a some point?thus they are anticipating that aspect of the work. Out of this is often born the problems of a dog coming in flat or cutting in. They are going out with the intention of taking control rather than the intention of casting to the control point.

 

Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily unless the cast is wrong.

 

Dogs learn by anticipating and patterning. So if their initial work is based on the concept of taking control firstly, we may be teaching them to come in?to look for that contact?before the cast/arc is correct.

 

This is for many where the problem arises.

 

When you have a young dog and especially when you yourself are new to this, it is very exciting to see a young dog go around the sheep and then settle in to bring them to you! So we start to build on it. We seek it. Often for a newcomer, it goes unnoticed that the dog was tight or flat or wrong in its shaping around sheep because we are so excited to see that process. So the outrun & flanking pattern gets its foundation here.

 

By the time you have advanced a little, you have an ingrained pattern of the wrong shape outrun or flank. As a result, the sheep are being affected adversely. They are being knocked/contacted by the dog before the dog gets to the real pressure point?the point at which it can take true control to manage the sheep. As a result, the dog usually does not want to stop because it is not at the balance point. It has never really covered the sheep. The balance point is eluding it as it angles in and the sheep bolt because they feel like they are being chased?moving quickly off line rather than towards you?the handler. Then the dog panics. etc, etc. We all know the scenario. A vicious cycle.

 

From what you describe, your sheep's behavior is an indicator of what needs to be addressed in your dog. You & your dog have unintentionally trained your sheep to behave the way they do. If this is the case, don't worry, they can be retrained! They have actually helped you see what is needed.

 

Try to step back away from your earlier goals and your ideas about what your dog is or is not doing and try to just study her. Study the situation and the dynamics to see what she is telling you about what she perceives she is supposed to be doing?what you may have inadvertently taught her to do?rather than just looking at what it is you want her to be doing that she is not.

 

Try this. Take her to a group of sheep and have her flank around them. Do this at a fairly close distance?30-50 feet. As she leaves to flank, follow her arc. Just walk following her. Do not fall back for a fetch. Instead of trying to get her to do "an outrun", follow her on her arc and just study her-watch her face and eyes as she casts around. Study to see where she chooses to turn in and make contact with the sheep. She most likely will somewhere. If you slowly and in a relaxed fashion follow her arc, she has no reason to draw up as you will be slowly taking the balance point away from her as you move. She should keep arcing ahead of you seeking the balance point and giving the sheep proper room as she arcs trying to get to that balance point.

 

She will probably, out of habit, start to draw up somewhere and make contact with the sheep before she casts far enough ahead to be covering the sheep (which is what happens on a tight or sliced outrun). If she starts to draw up?make a note as to where in relation to you & the sheep that is. Watch your own reaction too. Often as soon as the dog draws up, the new handler will often fall back and let the dog take that initiative & then that control?they let the dog fetch-inadvertently teaching the dog to pick its own balance point without proper focus on you being in the picture?without properly covering the sheep?without reaching the balance point. If you let the dog then have its sheep, you are teaching the dog it is OK to come in early on its flanks and later its outrun.

 

Her eye and her anticipation and her heading instinct or some combination are pulling her in.

 

When they are young, we get pleased that they are doing a small outrun and build on that. Especially if the dog a one time just wanted to orbit mindlessly. However?it is a poor foundation. As the dog starts working farther distances, it all becomes exaggerated and you have serious cutting in.

 

What should you do? What importance is all this?

 

Learn to use this anticipation & patterning to your benefit.

 

Reshape her ideas as to where to let her take control of the sheep from. Go back and improve her cast. Do not let her fetch unless she has cast properly to the balance point and only after she has given the sheep the proper room on her cast. Do this close at hand slowly stretching it out to greater distances.

 

Here is how I do it. Again, take inventory of what your dog is thinking. If you have led her to believe that she can pick her own point at which to draw up?in other words?one that is not really covering the sheep properly, you need to determine where that point is. (If she is not getting to the proper position to take control of the sheep?she is not learning to feel where to be to bring them to you from. She is satisfying her instinct to act on her own eye & the past experience born of your goal of teaching her to making contact rather than casting.)

 

Remember that as you started wearing or fetching with a dog before the cast was right, you developed her idea of an acceptable outrun, lift & fetch. Your dog now anticipates that the fetch is coming and so, eager to get on with the contact part of this, starts to draw up as early as it can. Often, as soon as the dog leaves your side on a flank or outrun, it is, in its mind, fetching. That's how dogs learn. They pattern & anticipate the contact point.

 

So while you and the dog arc, study where the dog wants to draw up and how it wants to draw up, and if it is not in the position to cover the sheep properly -if it angles in towards them when it meets the first sheep in the group rather than casting to control the whole group or if it does not bend around giving proper room-or if its eye pulls it in?just give some kind of message-reminder-correction-that she needs to keep going before she can make contact. You determine that point. Learn to see that point.

 

Keep spiraling SLOWLY yourself following the dog's arc while you do this. If you stop-you create a balance point. For now, you want to free her from her idea of looking for a balance point. So do not stop yet. Keep in mind that the dog will usually tell you when it is going to draw up by first looking in at the sheep. Its eye will draw it in and then later it is becomes a work habit. You need to get into her head when she starts to look in at the sheep. That's great timing. Then you will be reaching her in the thinking stages. Often just saying a harsh "no" or an "out" or another flank command or a flick of a stick or hat as the dog looks in will make it choose to keep going-so long as you SLOWLY spiral. You are telling it not to use its eye for that determination. You are telling it to forget about fetching. If you wait til she is already cutting in, you are late.

 

You may even need to make a noise to get the dogs attention. Remember that she is lost in thought here and it is an old thought/work pattern that you are going to have to break into. So you may need something to help get her attention. You need to alter its idea of making contact?cutting in?before it is started in physically. Make her keep casting farther and covering the sheep properly. As long as you keep slowly spiraling, you are moving the balance point-taking it away-and she has NO reason to draw up.

 

Keep repeating this slow spiral with her arcing-all in the same direction. You will see her want to shift into fetching somewhere. Tell her to keep going. You are needing to retrain her as to what the contact point is. She should not be allowed to make contact til you are ready-and that should be when she has relaxed and arced and has let go of her intention of contact AND has covered the sheep.

 

As the dogs get relaxed and give up their old ideas, they widen out on their own. Once you see that, once she is covering her sheep and giving the sheep proper room, stop her at the correct balance point. Then step to the same direction you were traveling and repeat this. (You will be starting in a "V" pattern here.) Do not be too eager to get back to fetching. It will come.

 

Repeat this exercise until she readily widens out on her own and looks to casting to the proper point. You will recognize it. Once you get that, stop to create a balance point, fall back and let her fetch. You are rewarding the dog's proper cast with the fetch. Only then let her fetch.

 

If she does not give sheep proper room or does not go far enough-NO FETCH. BE CONSISTENT. DO NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRITY. Keep encouraging the dog past it's idea of where to draw up, and make it continue on to where you know it should draw up to before it starts to fetch. They understand this pretty quickly and like it because once casting properly, the sheep will relax as well and the dog then feels in control-will stop better and pace better.

 

As someone mentioned in the other thread, you are not trying to push the dog out, but stop the dog from cutting in?from drawing up too early to start its fetch. You reprogram the dog where to start fetching from by showing it where that is and not allowing anything other than that.

 

You will know when the dog is giving proper room and casting far enough because the sheep will barely move until the dog starts to fetch. If she is right, they should come straight to you. Your dog will not need to weave on the fetch because if she is giving proper distance-based on what the sheep need-she will have room to walk up straight onto them. She will have more authority that is not a chase. You will be retraining your sheep that they can trust your dog.

 

If you have trouble getting the dog to bend back out off its sheep from it's cutting in point, you may have to give that separate attention. Make a mental note in the observation session as to where she starts to cut in. Don't panic about it. It is fixable. Plan ahead.

 

Continue. Next pass around, STOP the dog just BEFORE she starts to cut in?usually where she looks in at them.

 

Stopping is an invaluable tool. It prevents a dog from doing wrong. It allows a dog a chance to think. If its feet are moving, it brain is in gear?somehow. It is on a mission. Once stopped, it can hear you and take in a new thought. You are not using stopping as a correction but as a pause to stop & think & listen & learn. (You may have to leave it lie til you see in its eyes the old thought in it's brain has cleared out!)

 

Once stopped, ask her out without moving towards her. (Again you will probably find yourself in a "v" formation.) If she doesn't give more room, get between her and the sheep and put some kind of pressure on her to make her bend out or give some ground. Be careful. You are not trying to make her wide as much as you are teaching her to bend out. She needs to give to your pressure. You are trying to build a reaction to pressure from you that you can use anywhere in your training. And remember that you are more effective if you are NOT in your dogs face. Give your dog room to move off you otherwise you may end up actually chasing it faster and farther on around in a panic to get away from you. (Sometimes a long line is invaluable for this. You can gain a captive audience and your correction can be milder.) As soon as the dog gives, back away from the dog and FOLLOW IT on its cast (back to part 1). You want to make sure you are not blocking its path.

 

This is counter-intuitive to what most people do. It feels uncomfortable but it works. Give the dog room to go. Be confident that if it goes wrong, you can stop it and repeat the process and correct it.

 

I usually work on one direction at a time til it gets it and then the other. That way the dog gets to anticipate what is wanted and can relax into the casting knowing it will get to fetch when it casts correctly. It is a simple process that uses the dogs natural desire to work coupled with tapping into how they learn. They develop a lovely cast and then a straight fetch. The cast then is the foundation for good clean flanks and a good outrun.

 

So try to look at the situation in a new way. Look at it not that she is trying to blow you off, but rather that she is trying to do what she thinks you want her to do based on what you have done in the past. And she probably doesn't understand what you want. You have to find ways to show her what you want and this is how I do it.

 

I do not plan on trialling a dog until I got this cast correct. Otherwise every time the dog gets to do it wrong, it it reinforces the old pattern. If dogs are taught to cast properly from early training, before they get the fetching contact thing ingrained, they usually learn to outrun, lift & fetch correctly?faster. You will actually get to trialling quicker and your dog will have better control of the sheep and the whole experience will be more successful. Your training is then based on teaching the dog to manage stock rather than teaching the dog to outrun.

 

I take care of this all close at hand and gradually stretch out the distances. You then have foundation built for a proper outrun with the tools to correct her from cutting in anywhere built into the process.

 

On another note, I know that you are way up in Vermont. If you feel you are too far away to go away to dog events, have the dog events come to you! Most clinicians book pretty far in advance, but you could start now to host a clinic this fall. Jack has been mentioned a lot in the thread. He has not been to the northeast in many years. I am sure there are others in your area that need help so a clinic would be well supported. You would need about a dozen sheep, a well fenced training area?one for beginner dogs and then a larger area for other advanced aspects of training.

 

Good luck. Hope this helps you and anyone else struggling with the same problems.

 

Carol

[concrete]

This is the one of the best descriptions of putting a good foundation on a dog that I have read. You should think about writing a book Carol you have a gift for translating dog training into verbal form.

 

Kevin

 

I've edited this to include the fact that my command of the english language is poor at best and I have no accomplishments whatsoever in this area.

[kimkathan]

Carol

Thank you for the explination/description of what is happening, and some thought one where to go with it (what these boards should be). I'll be printing it out so as to look back and re-engrain.

 

I traveled to New Hampshire today to Bud Ames'. Worked in a new field, new sheep, and a new set of eyes. The one thing that we both noticed right off was that she was SOOO excited about everything that she was cranked and needed to blow off steam, after about 5 minutes of just doing balance work and wearing with no commands, she was wonderful and looking great. Other than working on her casting around properly (we now have something to go by ) We both commented that she could be ready to trial, if the course was 8 min instead of 3, so that she could blow off her steam. This is something that I thought she had outgrown, as she dosen't do it at home anymore, but I guess, she's just more comfortable in her surroundings there.

 

Do you have any advice on getting her to go out with intent, rather than being all goofy. I am trying to get to a different field/stock once every couple of weeks, when the invites come up.

 

Thanks again for the earlier post

[Eileen Stein]

I second what Kevin wrote. Thanks a lot for posting this, Carol.

[Tassie]

Another (very novice here) who thanks you very much for that wonderful description and prescription. I'm also printing that out so I can think it over, and discuss it with my trainer to see how we can put it into practice.

[Kerrigan]

I'm printing it out also. Really great description. Thanks from another very novice handler.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

I'd like to see Carol's post saved somewhere- FAQ'S perhaps? It makes a lot of sense, is easy to understand, contains a lot of valuable information, and I can't wait to see how my novice dog will respond! What a wonderful resource these boards are!

[Sue R]

Thank you, Carol! I worked with this a bit this morning with my dog (and our three training heifers). It was very educational.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Bump.

 

Because it's so dang good. Thanks, Carol.

[Liz P]

Carol, so are you saying that you don't actually teach an outrun, but a cast which is slowly extended into an outrun?

[GOOSEDOGS]

Hi Liz,

Carol is leaving tomorrow for Wales for 10 days, so she might not get to reply till she gets back.

Joan

[Liz P]

Ah, lucky. I remember she said she was going out of town, but I didn't realize she was leaving the country! Some day I'll make it across the ocean on a doggy holiday...

[Sue R]

Carol - I was reviewing and studying your post here after your reference elsewhere reminded me of it. One thing I wondered about and wasn't sure if I was understanding it correctly - when you are talking about

 

Keep spiraling SLOWLY yourself following the dog's arc while you do this.

 

do you mean that you are moving around in a circle that is increasing in diameter (slowly growing larger in diameter) continuously until the dog has moved out far enough that it isn't disturbing the sheep (just outside the flight zone for this particular group of sheep)?

 

When I think of a spiral, I think of a curved line that increases (or decreases) in distance from the center but, in rereading the post very carefully, I am not sure if you mean a circle that stays about the same in diameter or one that actually does spiral outward to that point of the dog being outside the flight zone. That is what I think you are meaning, moving outward to the point where the sheep remain in the same position rather than moving and responding to the dog being within their flight zone, but I wanted to make really sure that I was understanding you correctly.

 

Thank you for posting this. The several times I have seen your explanations, they have been wonderfully written and very comprehensive.

[Krisztina]

Like everyone else, I'd really like to thank Carol for this description! Very well written and clear.I worked on your advice from your article 'widening a dog' today and I was so pleased with the results.Thanks a million!!!

 

krisztina

[Sue R]

Krisztina - Would you mind posting the link to the "widening a dog" article? I'm not locating it on my own.

[Krisztina]

Sue,

 

sorry to be unclear, I got it off of 'Little Hats'.

 

http://www.littlehats.net/campion02.html

[Sue R]

Thank you. That's another that I should print out and study!

[Guest carol campion]

Carol - I was reviewing and studying your post here after your reference elsewhere reminded me of it. One thing I wondered about and wasn't sure if I was understanding it correctly - when you are talking about

 

 

 

do you mean that you are moving around in a circle that is increasing in diameter (slowly growing larger in diameter) continuously until the dog has moved out far enough that it isn't disturbing the sheep (just outside the flight zone for this particular group of sheep)?

 

When I think of a spiral, I think of a curved line that increases (or decreases) in distance from the center but, in rereading the post very carefully, I am not sure if you mean a circle that stays about the same in diameter or one that actually does spiral outward to that point of the dog being outside the flight zone. That is what I think you are meaning, moving outward to the point where the sheep remain in the same position rather than moving and responding to the dog being within their flight zone, but I wanted to make really sure that I was understanding you correctly.

 

Thank you for posting this. The several times I have seen your explanations, they have been wonderfully written and very comprehensive.

 

 

Hi Sue

 

You are exactly correct to question. To me the word spiral did not mean getting wider or closer but to others it does. So I will reword it with a better choice of words.

 

Once the dog starts to flank, you want to step out and follow the arc of the dog. You do not want to stand still nor do you want to start in a straight line back which invites the dog to fetch-unless it has given you the proper room on its cast. Again, the reason is that if the dog is cutting in because it is anticipating fetching, you change the dogs idea of where it has to go to before it gets a chance to fetch. By arcing yourself, you can keep moving the balance point just beyond the dog's grasp therefore telling it to keep casting. While doing this though, you need to put in place some means of kicking the dog back out to that arc. Not wide-but proper arc.

 

In reading this you might think "How frustrating for the dog to keep taking it away" But it doesn't frustrate them at all. They understand completely and get it pretty fast.

[Laurae]

So Carol, what exactly is causing the dog to kick out when you're following him? Are you saying the dog should naturally start to widen once he stops anticipating the fetch? I used to do this exercise with my tight-running, slicy-flanking dog and after a few times around the sheep he would widen a little (usually only a little) but stop paying as much attention to the sheep.

 

Thanks for revisiting this--it's very helpful!

[Sue R]

Carol - Thank you so much! This makes it much more clear to me. I originally thought (and only came to question it when rereading this today) that you did mean to increase the diameter of the circle (spiral) so this really clarifies for me what you are saying.

 

Now, I am wondering that, if you have to move the dog out further to get him/her outside the flight zone, that you need to increase the diameter of your circle or otherwise increase the pressure on the dog's shoulder?

[Guest carol campion]

Hi Laura & Sue

 

I was surprised to see this thread resurface after so many years. Glad it is helpful. Let me clarify some points.

 

A visual—Picture the geometry between you the sheep & the dog for this exercise as a wheel. The sheep will be the hub, the dog the rim and you, a spoke. Start with the dog across the sheep from you. You start the dog flanking, let's say, to the left—come bye. As it leaves to go, you also start flanking yourself in the same direction following the dog's arc, but your circles are happening nearer the sheep while to dog is on the outer edge. You place yourself pretty much between the hip & the shoulder of the dog as it casts. It would look like a wheel turning within a wheel. If the dog is flanking right, the sheep will not move much. The farther off the sheep the dog is placed to start, the farther off the sheep you can be. I start close up and once the dog learns to hold the arc, begin with the dog and myself out father off the sheep. Don't do this too early as it will give the dog lots of room & opportunity to cut in if you haven't gotten the foundation set.

 

As I do this, I am half-facing the dog as I flank and I personally use a short buggy whip or my hat and I have it in the hand in front of where the dog is going. Your body will be telling the dog which way to go but it is your arm—hat—buggy whip—whatever—breaking the dog's eye contact and keeping him turned out as he flanks. If he starts to cut in, flick it ahead of him but keep putting pressure on his hip/side to keep him going. I will watch their eyes and face as they go. You can pretty much tell before they cut in when they may, because they will first look in at the sheep and their ear set and look will change. You may see some tension there. At this point I will often say "no" and make the dog keep moving. If they were being drawn in when they were not in a position to cleanly cover the sheep, I make them keep flanking. The understand pretty fast that "no" means, "do not respond to your eye here". If I am moving, they should not try to draw up because I keep shifting the balance point away by flanking myself. Once it is clear that they are not being sucked in, (they will widen out and it may look like they take their attention off the sheep) start moving back in a straight line. This creates a balance point and the dog will feel it and know it is correct to walk up. But he will be walking on from a position farther off his sheep and so in a correct position to come straight on. It gives dogs power.

 

With a dog with a lot of eye or one that has been allowed to cut in for a long time, you may have to really be firm about his not looking in and then get sucked in by his eye and onto the sheep. You may have to make a noise with your hat or an empty water bottle or buggy whip or something to break through his mesmerized state to allow this new idea to enter his mind. The new idea is that he must cast further and cover the sheep better, not just where his eye first meets them, before he gets to fetch. It doesn't take long before the dog will realize from where he will get to fetch. And Laura, as they learn this, they do look like they take their attention off the sheep-at least from your point of view it may appear that way. I have never had one get too wide. If you think he is too wide, fall back and give him the sheep. You will see the dog look in, say "no—not the right place yet" and cast further til he has covered the sheep. Then let him fetch.

 

As a trainer you need to teach yourself what the proper flank looks like so you know when you are getting it. That's the first step.

 

I often start this exercise by first having the dog across the sheep from me. It allows the dog to see you better and for you to see a proper cast. I start my flank asking the dog to flank keeping the buggy whip—hat, arm, whatever, ahead of the dog. A lot of people use it like a lunge whip. Using it that way I find makes the dog go faster. So I keep it ahead of the dog just to break eye contact and to be in a position to give a flick if they start in. If your body goes ahead there you will turn the dog back. But if you flank and as the dog goes, follow him at his hip as I described earlier, but keep something ahead of him, you can keep his head turned out.

 

When I say "flank" here, I am not necessarily meaning using a verbal. In fact, I would just use body language til I get the dog shaping correctly. Otherwise, you run the risk of the dog imprinting the command on the wrong sliced flank. Then it is harder later to get the correct shape flank with that command. I add the command when the dog is consistently turning out with the flank. That is the point of learning I want to impress on the dog.

 

If you have a looser eyed dog, you will need to stop him at the point where you want him to turn onto his sheep from. Stopping him gives him some eye. Loose eyed dogs can slice flanks and need to have clean flanks, but you will possibly help him with his contact at the same time. Not because this takes it away, but because a looser eyed dog, depending on how loose eyed he is, often needs contact help.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Carol

[Sue R]

Thank you very, very much for taking the time to go into more detail about this.

 

I had seen the expression "wheel within a wheel" elsewhere recently, but I had no idea what it meant. That helps with the visualization a lot.

[workindogs]

I think this might also be referred to as the "daisy wheel"? Perhaps Vergil Holland? describes a similar method.

[Guest carol campion]

I think this might also be referred to as the "daisy wheel"? Perhaps Vergil Holland? describes a similar method.

 

HI Elizabeth,

 

I would guess from the name, daisy wheel, that you are right. I haven't read his book, so couldn't say for sure but would recommend anyone wanting more flank exercises to check it out. His book probably has diagrams or photos too. Its wise to consider different descriptions for the same training tool. Everyone describes things just a little differently and so one trainer may use just the perfect phrase or wording to help someone struggling to understand better.

 

Carol

[Laurae]

Thanks so much for the detailed explanation, Carol. I have heard many of these ideas before, but never put together in this way. This is very helpful