46 replies to this topic

[Debbie Meier]

As of yet every one of our males that we have kept to maturity have had their testicles decend, but some were real late, 8 months to almost a year. I could see where is someone purchased them as pups that the vet would have advised for surgery. When ever I sell a male I tell the buyers to not panic and to wait, so far all have descended.

[Liz P]

I know of many, many dogs that were cryptorchid. This is a problem found in a lot of different breeds.

For the last few days I've been trying to think of lines that consistently produce heart problems and I came up with three. One of those lines I know was producing PDA because owners had their pups diagnosed more extensively. The other two I don't know the exact problem, but dogs with murmurs have been found dead in their runs at very young ages (9 months, 4 years, etc).

[juliepoudrier]

As of yet every one of our males that we have kept to maturity have had their testicles decend, but some were real late, 8 months to almost a year. I could see where is someone purchased them as pups that the vet would have advised for surgery. When ever I sell a male I tell the buyers to not panic and to wait, so far all have descended.

Yep, the first undescended male I had, people advised me to wait, that they could take as long as 18 months to descend. But is that a good thing? If it's normal for pups to be descended by 8 weeks are we accidentally creating within the breed a propensity toward late-descending testicles? And how late is too late? I don't neuter any male dog before 2 years old, so I'm unlikely to accidentally neuter one that would have descended, but I do wonder if there's an upper limit beyond which you can be pretty sure they're not going to descend, and whether this is something (late descending and nondescending) that we are accidentally (?) creating (or increasing the incidence of) within the breed by not paying more attention to it.

And a sort of corollary to that: If we're not paying attention to the production of cryptorchids or late-descending dogs are we inadvertently limiting the gene pool? Clearly cryptorchids aren't contributing to the gene pool, but by creating dogs who could be worthy of breeding based on work, but can't be bred based on lack of descended testicles, what are we doing to our genetic diversity? (These questions aren't directed specifically at you, Debbie--it's just stuff I've wondered about after having two cryptorchids.)

And I guess along similar lines, if you (the general you) produce cryptorchids and the buyer of such a puppy is told "Wait, they may yet come down" and then they never do, the buyer had paid for potential, including breeding potential, that will never be realized. But if they've waited a year or more then they've already got a lot invested in that particular dog. And that's where the question of what a breeder reveals to a potential buyer is important, IMO. If, say, after two breedings of a particular stud dog (two different bitches, since it can be carried through the bitch as well) litters have included cryptorchid pups, do you point out the possibility to a potetial puppy buyer? I think you should, so that they can make an informed purchase. ("I really like this cross, so I'm going to take a chance on perhaps getting a pup that's a cryptorchid.") Again, just more rehtorical musings, but it's stuff I've wondered about....

J.

[Liz P]

Julie, technically those late descending dogs are cryptorchid. The gene seems to have variable expression (sometimes the testicles never come down, sometimes they do come down but very late).

If you had a superior dog that had a lot to contribute to the breed, but he was a cryptorchid (and fertile), you could use him and be fairly certain of eliminating the gene in a single generation. 1)Breed him to the bitch of your choice. 2)Place all the females from the litter on non breeding papers (because they are all silent carriers). 3)ONLY male pups with both testicles down at 6 weeks stay intact. 4)Male pups with one or two testicles missing at 6 weeks are placed on non breeding papers.

The problem with eliminating cryptorchids from a line is depending on the honesty of all the owners involved, silent female carriers and the need to balance working ability and the elimination/avoidance of more serious health problems.

Are all stud owners honest about when their dog's testicles dropped?

Did the stud change hands a few times, so the current owner has no idea when they came down?

If cryptorchids appear from time to time in your lines but you are trying to reduce your odds of producing a pup with HD/epilepsy/OCD/AOD, how much do you worry about it?

What happens if you keep a bitch line so don't want to be forced to keep a male in order to eliminate the gene?

[juliepoudrier]

If you had a superior dog that had a lot to contribute to the breed, but he was a cryptorchid (and fertile), you could use him and be fairly certain of eliminating the gene in a single generation. 1)Breed him to the bitch of your choice. 2)Place all the females from the litter on non breeding papers (because they are all silent carriers). 3)ONLY male pups with both testicles down at 6 weeks stay intact. 4)Male pups with one or two testicles missing at 6 weeks are placed on non breeding papers.

Doesn't the above assume that we *know* the genetics of transmission of cryptorchidism? Isn't it possible that a pup from a cryptorchid that isn't itself cryptorchid could still pass it along? What if bred to a bitch line that carries cryptorchidism? And how would you know, if the owners themselves don't know or don't care to divulge that information?

And yes, I realize that this problem isn't as critical as hips or deafness or epilepsy, but it is annoying that people tend to keep quiet about it, which I think was the original topic of this thread.

And if I'm not breeding my own (don't intend to do any more breeding), then I have to rely on the veracity of the folks who are breeding to inform me of such potential problems. And there lies the rub.

I don't have the answers, obviously, and I'm sure there are more pressing issues, but I think *all* of these issues should be discussed, which is what we are doing.

J.

[Liz P]

Doesn't the above assume that we *know* the genetics of transmission of cryptorchidism? Isn't it possible that a pup from a cryptorchid that isn't itself cryptorchid could still pass it along? What if bred to a bitch line that carries cryptorchidism? And how would you know, if the owners themselves don't know or don't care to divulge that information?

And yes, I realize that this problem isn't as critical as hips or deafness or epilepsy, but it is annoying that people tend to keep quiet about it, which I think was the original topic of this thread.

And if I'm not breeding my own (don't intend to do any more breeding), then I have to rely on the veracity of the folks who are breeding to inform me of such potential problems. And there lies the rub.

I don't have the answers, obviously, and I'm sure there are more pressing issues, but I think *all* of these issues should be discussed, which is what we are doing.

J.

We are not 100% certain of the inheritance, but the evidence for a single recessive, sex linked gene is extremely strong. Depending on who you ask, there may also be modifier genes that determine whether the testicles come down late if at all or come down then go back up.

You are correct that the only way to move forward with any hope of success when it comes to controlling genetic disorders is to be willing to share information.

[Debbie Meier]

Clearly cryptorchids aren't contributing to the gene pool, but by creating dogs who could be worthy of breeding based on work, but can't be bred based on lack of descended testicles, what are we doing to our genetic diversity? (These questions aren't directed specifically at you, Debbie--it's just stuff I've wondered about after having two cryptorchids.)

No problem, in the case of the males that we raised that were late decenders, neither are breeding worthy and have been culled, they had working ability shortfalls. If either had been rare talents I don't think I could have excluded them from the program due to them dropping late and to be honest I doubt I would even remember that they were late decenders aside from these threads that remind me. On another note, those late decenders were also late to mature, Ricky the male that we are currently using is a 1/2 brother out of a different female, he was "all boy" early on, early to mature in all areas from ability to trainability and beyond.