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Double lift-can you call the dog back to you?


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#1 Ancarrow

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 06:54 AM

My daughter, Kathryn (11 years) asked a question this past Sunday when we happened to be watching Tom Forrester at the time. On the double lift, several dogs were understandably confused by being asked to leave the first group they just brought and go an opposite direction for the second. Kathryn kept asking if the handler could call the dog back to him/her after the first group of sheep was fetched and then (kind of, if not actually) send the dog again for the second group. My guess is no, but I wanted to provide her the correct answer, as well as why. Thanks, in advance, for your comments.

#2 PSmitty

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 06:57 AM

This is a good question. I wondered the same.
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#3 juliepoudrier

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:07 AM

Tom (and someone else who had trouble, can't remember who) did use his recall on Pete to try to get him to let the first group go. At that point I imagine you do whatever you have to do to try and get the dog to come off the first group and then turn back for the second. All those commands are being pointed (taking points off for them). I would imagine if the handler called the dog back to his feet and resent for the second packet, then the handler would be DQed, because the dog is off course (since the dog is supposed to be turned back from somewhere near where the first packet of sheep are dropped) and the handler has made it into something else and not an actual double lift. But that's just supposition on my part. Maybe someone who has judged a double lift can give more insight.

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#4 PennyT

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:15 AM

The short answer is no. I just saw in the guidelines that outrun points would be gone as if the 19 for a crossover or the dog can be disqualified. I always thought it was a straight DQ if the handler calls the dog back and let's it come the whole way back or if the handler just lets the dog get all the way back to his or her side as for a regular outrun but apparently it's not.

The idea is that the dog has the ability and confidence to take the direction for turning back to a second group when the dog not with the handler.

Oops. Just saw Julie's note. No, I have not judged a double-lift.

Using a recall to move the dog wouldn't be the same as a restart from approximately the handler's feet for the second lot.

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#5 Shoofly

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:22 AM

I can tell you that i *did* use my recall whistle with Bill on sunday. That's how i finally got him to go back. We had already lost all outrun points for the crossover so weren't losing anything else there. I didn't want to use it since i knew there was a chance i could be DQ'ed, though i thought it was probably a small chance. I gave the whistle and brought Bill back just part way to me, in hopes he'd unhook a bit from the first group, that he'd be more likely to actually turn around and look back up the field (since he's done smaller turnbacks at home closer to me), and also that he might actually be able to see his second group if he was closer to me where the lay of the field wasn't blocking his view. It worked, he went back, and we got to complete the run.
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#6 PSmitty

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:05 AM

Makes perfect sense. Thanks!
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#7 juliepoudrier

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:07 AM

Yep, you were the other one whose recall whistle I recognized. I think the key is not bringing the dog all the way back, but just trying to get the dog to release that first group of sheep and take direction to go look for another. And I imagine whether one is DQed depends on the judges, though technically they wouldn't necessarily *know* that a handler was blowing a recall vs. something else.

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#8 Ancarrow

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:20 AM

Thanks guys, great responses. Understand much better now, it makes sense.

#9 Pearse

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:21 AM

. And I imagine whether one is DQed depends on the judges, though technically they wouldn't necessarily *know* that a handler was blowing a recall vs. something else.

J.



Except for that part where the dog comes straight back at the handler.

#10 Pippin's person

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:31 AM

At the Bluegrass this year, a handler was called off for using a vocal recall on the Pro-Novice field to help her dog on the drive. The judge told her that because she'd said "that'll do", she'd effectively left the post. Many other handlers were surprised about this (the judge was from the U.K.) and I don't think it happened again that the judge called someone off for that (though I also think handlers were more careful about using the recall on something like a drive)--so it could be, as Julie notes, that there are differences tied to different trial rules/specific judges in different places as well.
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#11 PSmitty

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:41 AM

Except for that part where the dog comes straight back at the handler.


Even if the dog only came back a bit (say, to the area where they dropped off the first group), then the handler laid the dog down, then gave the look back?
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#12 PennyT

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:46 AM

I stopped using "that'll do" for shedding training when several different trainers from the U.K. informed me "that'll do" was a truly simple way to be disqualified as it is considered on the order of a retire, a bit like leaving the post at the wrong time. One person, not the one you're probably all thinking of, was so stiffly polite in explaining the matter that you would have thought I had just told him I warm my dogs up at a trial by throwing a frisbee back where all the cars are parked or anything else one would not dream of doing.

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#13 juliepoudrier

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:26 AM

Even if the dog only came back a bit (say, to the area where they dropped off the first group), then the handler laid the dog down, then gave the look back?

Paula,
I think at this point the judge is having to guess at the handler's intent. Sure Pearse is right that if a handler blows a whiste and the dog turns back toward the handler, the judge can assume that the whistle blown was a recall, but the handler could have as easily blown a flank and the dog simply turned in confusion. To me that's getting into a whole lot of grey area trying to determine what the handler actually asked of the dog (I recognized the recalls for those two dogs because I know the handlers and have seen them work the dogs many times).

It's the judge's discretion, and at least in the case of Tom and Robin, the judges chose not to DQ. I think Robin's approach makes sense--try to get the dog to turn back however you can. If the judges don't like your attempt, they can DQ you.

J.

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#14 Shoofly

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:36 AM

Exactly. My next step would have been to call Bill even further back to me since at that point i just needed to get him to turnback somehow. I was very close to just retiring and halfway waiting for a tap on the shoulder telling me i was excused. It ended up being a good training session since Bill didn't actually have more than the very basics of a small turnback with sheep in easy sight. Not exactly where i would plan to get some training done but hey... :rolleyes:
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#15 NorthfieldNick

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:21 AM

Sightly different notion, but what about using "here" to get a dog to come toward you. On a drive say, not so much on a turnback or outrun. I do use a "that'll do, here" to bring my dogs to my feet, usually when we're just out running in the back field. I've also used a "here!" to get Nick to come toward me when he gets stuck on pressure, but when I actually want him to be off-balance, etc. I also used it to get him started on inside flanks, as in"Come bye... here... come bye" so he got the idea that, yes, I do really want you to flank all the way between me & the sheep.

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#16 Shoofly

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:35 AM

If you watched the webcast, i'm sure you heard me calling my dogs names. You'll notice they pulled towards me whenever i did it, on the fetch to put some extra pressure on the side, crossdrive to hold the line, wherever. It's my "rope".
-- Robin French
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#17 PSmitty

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:36 AM

I did notice that, Robin. Interesting!
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#18 WildFlower

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:40 AM

This is such a great discussion!

And Robin, I was very excited to recognize your name when I was getting the twitter updates of the runs. Congrats!

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#19 Maja

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 12:56 PM

If you watched the webcast, i'm sure you heard me calling my dogs names. You'll notice they pulled towards me whenever i did it, on the fetch to put some extra pressure on the side, crossdrive to hold the line, wherever. It's my "rope".

I did!! I did!!! :rolleyes: :D
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#20 Sue R

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 01:14 PM

If you watched the webcast, i'm sure you heard me calling my dogs names. You'll notice they pulled towards me whenever i did it, on the fetch to put some extra pressure on the side, crossdrive to hold the line, wherever. It's my "rope".

You told me about this quite some time ago, when I was having issues with Celt flying around the cattle to go to the heads when he was supposed to be driving, and it's been a big help. Sometimes the dog's name is a powerful tool.
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