Help for my wild Rob

[Pat Kaiser]

Hi all,

 

I need some expert or non-expert opinions on my wild Rob dog.

 

Scott Glen started him at the Hillydale sheep camp last July and had pretty good control of him. I worked him a little during the summer but he was still too much dog for me (novice handler) and I was screwing him up so I sent him to Lyle?s for 2 months training (Nov and Dec).

 

She got him under great control and had him driving and doing nice long outruns. The neat thing was that most of the time he was relaxed and not chasing sheep. If he did get a little hyper she could calm him right down.

 

I brought him home worked him almost everyday except for the 3 weeks we had deep snow? March 1st a sheep bashed me from behind and I slipped in the mud and tore my knee up. Rob hasn?t been worked since that day. I am now able to walk without crutches but I?m not able to move faster than a walk so I can?t work him on foot.

 

My question is: Would it do any harm to work him while I?m on my ATV? I don?t want to screw him up but he?s not a young dog so I hate losing the training time. I love this dog and he really needs to work.

 

Denise bred Rob and Andrea and Terry have seen him work so I'm hoping at least those 3 can give me some input. I welcome help from any of you.

 

Thanks.

 

Pat Kaiser

[Denise Wall]

Hi Pat,

 

Glad to hear you're on the mend. I think the ATV is a great idea. We used it with a littermate (not Zeke) of Rob's to help get some of the wild out of him.

 

If you're going to use it for fetching and wearing, I think the key is to start out with some fit sheep and try to keep enough ahead of them so the dog always has to be focusing on bringing you the sheep and has enough to do. The sheep might want to follow you at first but eventually they get tired of it and the dog has to work to keep them held to you.

 

When we did it with Coy, one of us drove and the other sat backwards facing the dog and watched. If you're by yourself, you might want to get a good clip on mirror, maybe like one a bicyclist wears, so you can see what's going on back there. Be careful not to let the dog or sheep get too tired. It may take once or twice to get how you want to do it down pat and to get the animals use to it.

 

I'm sure you could train and work a dog other ways using an ATV but I've never done it. Maybe someone else could help.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

Denise

[Pat Kaiser]

Thank you Denise for the help.

 

I'll use a mirror as you suggested.

 

I think at first Rob will be pushing the sheep too fast on a fetch. If he is not listening to my commands, would it be okay for me to drive straight through the sheep to correct him?

 

I'll try working him tomorrow and report back with results.

[blackacre]

Hi Pat!

Nice to see you here.

I didn't know about your knee, bummer.

I've never trained a dog off an ATV so I'd be really interested to hear how it goes. The one thing I can tell you from my personal experience is that when I was bringing sheep out at our sheep camp with the golf cart, Hobbes would stop working the sheep and wouldn't take commands whenever it was in motion. He'd just assume he had to follow me and leave the sheep. So, it might take Rob some time to figure that part out.

Andrea

[Lana]

Pat,i dont work of of ATV's much but the 1st time i worked my older dog from a horse he was pretty sure he did not have to listen.I had to run the horse up to him get off and have a lil chat.After he understood i could and would get off the horse we have not had an issue.My guess would be your dog will try the same.Lana

[blackacre]

Hey Lana!

Wazzup? Still basking in glory from your great finish at the Cattledog Finals?

Damn, I'm excited. I think we may be building up some real training talk again on the Boards.

Andrea

[Pat Kaiser]

Andrea, I?ll have to watch out for that with Rob. He gets a little nutty when he hears the ATV start so I hope he doesn?t try to chase it.

 

Lana, I?m pretty sure that I?ll have to get after him at least once but I?m hoping I won?t have to get off the ATV to do it. Rob does know when you holler and start walking toward him that he?s in trouble and that?s usually enough correction for him so I hope that works with the ATV.

 

My plan is to try to cut out and work 5 of the least wild of my 12 sheep (I don?t have any calm ones). Lyle usually started a work session with Rob driving for a while before she sent him on an outrun so that?s what I?ll do.

 

To be honest with you all, I?m a little uneasy about doing this. Generally I started a session with Rob dragging a long line and took it off when I was sure he was relatively calm and under control. I won?t be able to do it that way on the ATV.

 

Oh well, nothing ventured nothing gained!

 

Pat

[Lana]

Andrea,i had the 3 day long drive home to bask.i drove the hubby nuts going over ever run over and over. LOL. I did get the chance Sunday to give Blue's breeder the ribbon and she was very happy which made my day.Lana

[concrete]

I've worked calves with an atv before. My trained dog jumped right in and did great. A younger dog I had would fetch a while then try to come back to me on the atv. I just turned and drove straight at him and it cured that pretty quick. I don't think you would want to actually run the dog over though. When the dogs pushed the calves too fast we just went faster on the atv and they learned after a while that all that running around wasn't a good thing. I don't think you could do that with sheep.

If you don't want to drive through the sheep you can always let the dog push the sheep past you and take off the other way. Then the dog has to flank all the way around get the sheep and fetch them back to you. My dogs seem to get tired of this fairly quickly.

 

Kevin Brannon

[StillTerry]

Pat,

 

Some of my dogs I can work from an ATV and some I cannot. One of my dogs is very obsessed with it. (She is many chapters in the obsessive/compulsion dog owner's manual.)

 

When I first got my ATV, I had problems with the young dogs which were of my own making. I used it exclusively to run them and give them exercise. They were unsure if they should follow the ATV when I took off or bringing the sheep when I sent them and follow me with it. The problem is resolved.

 

Guess what I am trying to say is it depends on the dog.

 

I know that Lyle runs her dogs with an ATV for exercise so I bet that Rob is familiar with it. You may call her and ask her about it.

 

Since you are going to be at Lyle's in May, she could probably get Rob used to working off an ATV at that time. Ask her.

 

Gotta run. Beautiful day. Taxes done. Going to try my puppy on sheep for the first time today.

[Shoofly]

Hi Pat -

 

I use an ATV constantly in training my dogs. It's the best thing i've ever gotten for the job and i'll never be without one again.

 

It sounds like your dog has enough training on him that you don't have to do the wearing stuff unless you just want to. I find with some dogs that actually will get them wired up, following sheep behind the atv. Chances are, if you go slow enough to where your dog is working at the pace you really want, the sheep are going end up all around the front of you and you'll be so busy trying to not run over something/someone that it won't work out well.

 

I'd think about doing lots of outruns from the bike. Send your dog and make him bring the sheep to you nicely, at a nice pace. If he doesn't, rev that bike up and start towards him, using your usual voice correction. When he gives, stop and let him continue the fetch. When he gets the sheep to you, call him off, ride off to another location and send him again. I find the bike to be a terrific tool and you'll use more of your field than you ever have before I bet. I didnt realize how stuck in one area i was until i started working dogs from the bike.

 

One thing, your dog will start taking that rev of the bike as the beginning of a correction so you have to watch that, like if you decide to move after you've sent the dog and you aren't moving to correct him (i really rev mine hard to start a correction so it's obvious i'm less than pleased). And, you'll probably need to reinforce corrections without the bike after awhile unless you can really do a good impression of the noise it makes.

[Denise Wall]

If he doesn't, rev that bike up and start towards him, using your usual voice correction.

 

Well, I hope Rob ain't like his mama! I've never worked Joy using an ATV but I've tried that using a horse. When Joy was first starting out, she could run out well as far as you could send her. However, once she got to the sheep and lifted them, the fetch could get a little wild to say the least. Someone loaned me their horse and suggested I gallop toward her and through the sheep using a strong voice correction to back her off. When I tried it, Joy came straight at us and jumped up and bit the horse in the face. Let me tell you that horse was pretty surprised!

 

Also, the one time I tried to work Mick from an ATV, I never made it to the field because he tried to work the ATV.

 

I'm sure you can work through any of these potential problems, I'm just sharing my experiences with his relatives. If I still had horses or if I had an ATV, I'd have worked through these problems. Since I don't, I let it go.

 

Robin, I'm glad you posted because I knew you used your ATV the way Pat will probably want to.

 

Denise

[Pat Kaiser]

Thanks Kevin, Terry Robin and Denise for the help. All of you had great suggestions that helped me get over my disappointment in our workout yesterday.

 

Here?s what happened:

I worked Rob in a pen about 100 X 200 ft. He got crazy at the sound of the ATV engine so I had to turn it off. He then proceeded to charge into the sheep, split one off and hung on to its rear leg for a while. Hard to believe but there was no damage to the sheep. He then brought them to me and responded to my lie down commands but he was way too hyper so I quit.

 

If this is going to work I?ll have to try to desensitize him to the ATV first.

 

Terry I never thought of asking Lyle about working him on the ATV at the clinic. I was planning to go just as a spectator. Is the clinic going to be Sat & Sun or Sun & Mon? I need to make motel reservations.

 

Robin, I was planning to use the ATV just until my knee is ready for a brace. But the idea of using it later to be able to cover all of my 25 acres sounds great.

 

Denise thanks for my laugh of the day. I?m sure Rob would have done the same as his Mom Joy did. He tried to bite the ATV tires yesterday until I hollered at him.

 

You all made me feel more confident today.

 

Pat

[Shoofly]

Pat -

 

You might try taking him out without the sheep and teach him to heel to the atv. Every time he gets in front of you, correct him with your voice or whack him with a stock whip or something to get him to get behind you. Run the stink out of him next to the atv for awhile until he gets bored with it. You just have to decide to get him past the problems.

 

I'd think it would be pretty difficult using an atv in a 100 x 200 pen, so you might just go ahead and get in the open. If you think he'll behave himself, do the slow wearing and do lots of 90 degree turns - he'll have to cover a lot more ground than you or the sheep if you add in turns.

 

You said you usually work him on a long line. If that makes you more comfortable, go ahead and do it. Bet you can get pretty good at stopping the atv right on top of that line when you need to.

 

I know a lot of dogs get crazy around atvs but you can work thru it the same way you'd work thru stuff like a puppy biting your legs when you walk. Just explain in whatever terms you like that it's not acceptable to do that.

 

I can sure sympathize with the bad knee stuff, have 2 bad ones myself.

[Lana]

Pat, can u work him in a bigger area?I think the small area probably amped him up more. I agree with taking him out and just running him with ATV so he gets used to it.Dont get discouraged these dogs bounce back and forgive our human short comings with amazing grace and speed.Lana

[Pat Kaiser]

Thanks Robin.

 

Duh! I was just thinking I had to desensitize not even thinking about correction. But of course it is unacceptable, possiby dangerous behavior that needs to stop.

 

I'll work on that today.

 

Pat

[Shoofly]

Let us know how it goes.

[Pat Kaiser]

Lana, yes, I realize now that it was too small of an area. I won't do that again!

 

I worked Rob with the ATV a while ago in the 25 acre field without the sheep. I used a bag on the end of a lunge whip to correct him for trying to herd the ATV.

 

I couldn't exactly keep him near me, he ran big circles around me. But after about a mile or so of running with me (sometimes at speeds near 20 MPH) he did get tired and I assume bored and quit the "Herd the ATV" game. Wow! I'm happy.

 

I'll repeat this the next few days and see how it goes.

 

Thanks again to everyone who is helping me.

 

Pat

[Shoofly]

Good job!