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Another question about class


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#1 dracina

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 10:17 AM

Hi all:

This may be an elementary question (borne of pure curiosity) but can the same handler run the same dog in two different classes at the same USBCHA or CBCA sanctioned trial? A hypothetical example: I am running Jack in Nursery and Open at the National Finals.

Thanks,
Karrin

#2 MagRam

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 11:10 AM

Hi all:

This may be an elementary question (borne of pure curiosity) but can the same handler run the same dog in two different classes at the same USBCHA or CBCA sanctioned trial? A hypothetical example: I am running Jack in Nursery and Open at the National Finals.

Thanks,
Karrin



Generally as I understand it there are only two classes actually "sanctioned" at a USBCHA trial -- Open and Nursery. Many trials also offer other classes such as Novice, Ranch, Pro-Novice, Open Ranch. Although definitions and nomenclature seem to vary in different areas generally the classes get tougher as you move from Novice through ro Open Ranch - which is usually the last step before Open.

You can run generally Nursery and any other class appropriate for your dog in the same trial. It is very common in California at least to see dogs running Nursery and Pro - Novice at the same time. The top Nursery dogs who are tuning up for the Nationals will often run Nursery and Open at the same trial.

What you generally cannot do is combine any two other classes e.g. cannot run same dog Pro-Novice and Open (unless th trial offers non-compete runs which some do). Basically once you ove a dog/handler combination up for a competitive run, you cannot move back down again. Generally, a new handler can move a dog down one class from where it was previously running sort of to allow a getting to know you period.

#3 Debbie Meier

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 11:26 AM

Hi Karren,

It's been our expirence that it is best to check with individual event hosts and/or the clubs that are involved with the particular event. Different groups have different rules in regard to the ability to run a dog twice at the same event.

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#4 airbear

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:50 PM

CBCA only "sanctions" their annual championships, which is Open and Nursery (and yes, you can cross-enter Nursery and Open). The provincial stock dog associations sanction their local trials, and I know that BC and Alberta both allow cross-entry across classes. In BC, under BC Stock Dog Association (BCSDA) rules, you cannot cross-enter across more than two classes. By this, I mean that you can enter NN and PN, or PN and Open, but you couldn't cross-enter NN and Open. Even though it is permitted, all trial hosts reserve the right to offer (or not offer) cross entering. If the trial host has limited stock/daylight available, s/he may not allow cross-entering.
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#5 dracina

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 04:46 PM

Thank you for replying- could it be then, if this scenario did by chance occur at the National Finals, the same dog/handler team could be Nursery Champion, as well as National Champion? That is interesting. Has this ever been the case?

Karrin

#6 juliepoudrier

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 05:10 PM

It is possible for a dog to become both nursery and open champion. I don't know for a fact, but I don't think it's happened so far. One of our board members (that I know of; there could be others) will be running the same dog in both open and nursery at the finals this year.


I trial mostly in VA and NC and neither allows cross-entering *except* for nursery and another class. In NEBCA (northeast) handlers can cross-enter between ranch and open (ranch is the open course without the shed) UNTIL they place (or something like that) in open, at which point they are no longer allowed to cross enter that dog (I think) in ranch.

So it really does vary, but in most of the places I have trialed, cross entering is rather limited (with the exception of nursery and another class). The year I ran Twist in nursery, I also ran her in P/N the entire season.

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#7 MagRam

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 05:44 PM

Thank you for replying- could it be then, if this scenario did by chance occur at the National Finals, the same dog/handler team could be Nursery Champion, as well as National Champion? That is interesting. Has this ever been the case?

Karrin


I don't think the same dog has ever won both Nursery and Open at the same Finals but Allen Mills and Sis finished 10th in Nursery and 3rd in Open last year at the Finals in Klamath.

#8 Donald McCaig

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 06:45 AM

Ms Karrin writes,
Thank you for replying- could it be then, if this scenario did by chance occur at the National Finals, the same dog/handler team could be Nursery Champion, as well as National Champion? That is interesting. Has this ever been the case?

The odds of a under three year old dog outpointing much more experienced dogs at the double lift are infinitesimal. Wiston Cap, might have done it but any handler who routinely runs a young dog twice in difficult open trials is running a risk.

Donald McCaig

#9 dracina

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 07:24 AM

Ms Karrin writes,
Thank you for replying- could it be then, if this scenario did by chance occur at the National Finals, the same dog/handler team could be Nursery Champion, as well as National Champion? That is interesting. Has this ever been the case?

The odds of a under three year old dog outpointing much more experienced dogs at the double lift are infinitesimal. Wiston Cap, might have done it but any handler who routinely runs a young dog twice in difficult open trials is running a risk.

Donald McCaig


OK, that definitely makes sense. To be clear, I was not asking to single out one particular person or case. Further, I do not have the dog or ability to run in any class, so I am not passing judgment. I asked the original question because I think that maybe I am not understanding the purpose of the Nursery class. The significance of Nursery, I thought, was for the up-and-coming youngsters. In the case of the Finals, is the Nursery course the same as the Open course, without the (ETA: shed or) international shed? I assumed that once a dog was good enough and qualified for Open, then running in Nursery would be superfluous (even if it is still qualified under Nursery rules).

Karrin

#10 juliepoudrier

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:07 AM

Karrin,
The nursery course is a bit smaller than the open course at the finals.

If you go to the finals website and click on the "sheepdogs" tab, the drop down menu will give selections where you can read about the open or nursery courses.

J.

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#11 PennyT

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:17 AM

Wasn't Dorrance Eikamp Open winner and Nursery reserve the same year with Rex bought by Hubert Bailey, I think but am not positive, right after Nursery and just before Open. Someone else may know the details.

There may be examples of winning both. You could look at the USBCHA website and see.

Penny

Thank you for replying- could it be then, if this scenario did by chance occur at the National Finals, the same dog/handler team could be Nursery Champion, as well as National Champion? That is interesting. Has this ever been the case?

Karrin



#12 Shoofly

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:40 AM

Donald wrote "The odds of a under three year old dog outpointing much more experienced dogs at the double lift are infinitesimal. Wiston Cap, might have done it but any handler who routinely runs a young dog twice in difficult open trials is running a risk."

I'm curious what risk you mean.

Others - i believe there are 4 teams running in both Nursery and Open at the upcoming Finals. Bill and i will be one of them.
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#13 dracina

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:07 AM

Karrin,
The nursery course is a bit smaller than the open course at the finals.

If you go to the finals website and click on the "sheepdogs" tab, the drop down menu will give selections where you can read about the open or nursery courses.

J.


Yes, I see this. Correct me if I am wrong, but in theory, isn't the Nursery course less difficult that the Open course because there is no shed? To me, this suggests that there is a reason for the course being less challenging; and because of the age requirements of the Nursery program, I would guess that this is because the younger dogs lack the experience (as Donald seemed to imply) to be successful on the Open course.

However, if a dog/handler team has demonstrated mastery of the Open course regardless of age (and if one has competed and qualified for the National Finals in Open, that signifies to me that one has achieved a certain level of mastery, and is certainly a contender for National Champion), then why is it also appropriate that the same team can compete in a lower class?

This is why I find the idea of qualifying and competing in both classes so confusing.

Karrin

#14 Shoofly

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:07 PM

I wouldn't call Nursery a "lower" class. It's a showcase for dogs that can do well at a young age, a quality many find appealing in making breeding decisions.
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#15 RMSBORDERCOLLIES

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:17 PM

Yes, I see this. Correct me if I am wrong, but in theory, isn't the Nursery course less difficult that the Open course because there is no shed? To me, this suggests that there is a reason for the course being less challenging; and because of the age requirements of the Nursery program, I would guess that this is because the younger dogs lack the experience (as Donald seemed to imply) to be successful on the Open course.

However, if a dog/handler team has demonstrated mastery of the Open course regardless of age (and if one has competed and qualified for the National Finals in Open, that signifies to me that one has achieved a certain level of mastery, and is certainly a contender for National Champion), then why is it also appropriate that the same team can compete in a lower class?

This is why I find the idea of qualifying and competing in both classes so confusing.

Karrin



I'll try and be as un-opinionated (is that a word?) as possible here. The nursery class was first developed in the UK to show those folks in need of a young dog what the "special" young dogs were capable of accomplishing at a young age. This was the goal behind starting nursery trials and, in my opinion, should still be. Not every dog comes equipped to be a "special" nursery dog and that does not have anything to do with being better or worse than another dog. It merely says that this "special" dog can take the discipline and the stress of training to an open level at a very young age and still be capable of doing it throughout his working life. Some of these "special" young dogs that comes to mind right away is Dennis Gellings' Jan and Amanda Milliken's Clive. Both these dogs have shown they have the ability to take training to an open level at a very young age and keep on going. There are many more out there that have done as well also, but I need not dwell any further on that. Not all are capable of this but they are still extremely useful dogs in their own right. We need to learn the difference here and not put those dogs that don't fit the pattern through the stress of trying to be what they are not. Nursery dogs need to have those special qualities that sets them apart from the norm and, sometimes, I think we have forgotten that and just accept that nursery is merely an age class. Not so, in my opinion. It is a class for "special" dogs that can take the stress of training and not break under it just like the energizer bunny and keep on going throughout their life. I've said my piece, what's yours?.....Bob

#16 dracina

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:12 PM

This is how I understand the purpose of the Nursery program to be, also.

But this still does not answer my question, why is it appropriate to compete in both at the National Finals? I am not suggesting that it is inappropriate (in fact, I think that I may be a part sponsor of one of these teams), I don’t understand what is the benefit. Maybe it seems obvious to others (especially to those that have dogs running in trials), but honestly, I can not understand.

As a spectator coming to watch the National Finals, I see the same dog/handler team run in the Nursery and the Open class. To the spectator, the Open class course looks to be more difficult than the Nursery course. Bob, if you were just to tell me what you just said in your post, my first question to you would be, if this “special” dog is so good, has the stamina and is a proven competitor in Open, why still be in Nursery? Does Open not showcase the talents of the dog, as well?

Karrin

ETA: Or, perhaps a more worthwhile question would be: If the Nursery class is meant to showcase the talents of the young dogs that are capable of running at the Open level, why doesn't the Nursery course have the same elements as the Open course? This would still showcase the "special" dogs, and prove that they can compete at the Open level.

#17 juliepoudrier

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:26 PM

It's a good question Karrin, but I don't think anyone will be able to come up with a good answer.

J.

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#18 kelpiegirl

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:33 PM

Bob
You've said what I have been taught, and I think some of what I have been taught is by you :rolleyes: It's very true. Only very special dogs who can handle the rigors of such high level of work, and standards at a young age should even entertain the notion of going.... Not that the dogs make the decision, but you know what I mean. There are a few dogs out there that even at young ages, seem to be handling open courses very well, and I believe that's what the nursery class is for- those few cream of the crop dogs who have the mental fortitude and God given talen to put in a top flight run.

I'll try and be as un-opinionated (is that a word?) as possible here. The nursery class was first developed in the UK to show those folks in need of a young dog what the "special" young dogs were capable of accomplishing at a young age. This was the goal behind starting nursery trials and, in my opinion, should still be. Not every dog comes equipped to be a "special" nursery dog and that does not have anything to do with being better or worse than another dog. It merely says that this "special" dog can take the discipline and the stress of training to an open level at a very young age and still be capable of doing it throughout his working life. Some of these "special" young dogs that comes to mind right away is Dennis Gellings' Jan and Amanda Milliken's Clive. Both these dogs have shown they have the ability to take training to an open level at a very young age and keep on going. There are many more out there that have done as well also, but I need not dwell any further on that. Not all are capable of this but they are still extremely useful dogs in their own right. We need to learn the difference here and not put those dogs that don't fit the pattern through the stress of trying to be what they are not. Nursery dogs need to have those special qualities that sets them apart from the norm and, sometimes, I think we have forgotten that and just accept that nursery is merely an age class. Not so, in my opinion. It is a class for "special" dogs that can take the stress of training and not break under it just like the energizer bunny and keep on going throughout their life. I've said my piece, what's yours?.....Bob


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#19 Shoofly

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:37 PM

There's also the consideration of having the Nursery+Open dogs run against their "peers" or "class year" rather than being kicked out of Nursery and lost in the crowd. The top kids in a high school class who are taking AP courses still get to graduate with their class and compete for class honors.
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#20 dracina

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:35 PM

There's also the consideration of having the Nursery+Open dogs run against their "peers" or "class year" rather than being kicked out of Nursery and lost in the crowd. The top kids in a high school class who are taking AP courses still get to graduate with their class and compete for class honors.


Hmmm. Please tell me that you are not serious about this. If so, my dogs will surely need therapy after I turn down their requests for "Nursery Class of 2010" hoodies.

Although as a teacher, I respect the education analogy (however incongruous)....but seriously, Robin- please elaborate, because I can not see how "peers" or "class year" could possibly be an issue.

Karrin



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